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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Refuse to provide a reference

162 replies

ByMyName · 07/02/2022 22:35

I own a small business and we provide employment to a small team.

Last year we took on a junior member of staff through a government backed scheme. The scheme reimbursed the business the cost of employing someone who was on UC and at risk of long term unemployment. In turn we provided training and work experience. Win-win.

This particular employee is on a fixed term contract. If it was not a government backed scheme, we would not have kept her for a week.

She was working from home as most of our staff do since covid. She had no childcare provision and her children would scream during staff meeting. She is constantly late and unavailable during working hours. She also had many sick days. Her work is poor and she has shown no improvement despite training and coaching.

Her line manager has had several informal conversations with her. I asked not to push to a formal warning as it was a fixed term contract anyway.

Can I inform the employee that we will not provide her with a reference?

OP posts:
N00tN00t · 09/02/2022 15:25

@busyeatingbiscuits 12 months?? I'd have been in this woman's exact position, then. I feel really sorry for her actually.

jessy100 · 09/02/2022 15:33

Maybe the OP. could do an empathy training course!! As for the idiot who suggested a private conversation outside of the usual reference giving procedure. ,

then I hope you realise consequences of doing this!.

suing for defamation by an employee is a real possibility.

Original poster
ByMyName · 09/02/2022 15:38

@jessy100

Maybe the OP. could do an empathy training course!! As for the idiot who suggested a private conversation outside of the usual reference giving procedure. ,

then I hope you realise consequences of doing this!.

suing for defamation by an employee is a real possibility.

It happens all the time.
OP posts:
SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 15:41

[quote N00tN00t]@busyeatingbiscuits 12 months?? I'd have been in this woman's exact position, then. I feel really sorry for her actually.[/quote]
I do too. But her wider situation isn't anything OP has any control over. Supporting her back into work is for another agency, OP has tried to do her bit and will probably never offer to do anything like it again.

N00tN00t · 09/02/2022 15:44

No, I don't blame anyone except the system.

Bluemonkey2029 · 09/02/2022 15:45

OP sounds like you've done all you can but just to add to the conversation, I've taken on 2 members of staff through this scheme, neither of whom we would have taken on without the scheme because they didn't have any relevant experience and quite frankly there are other job seekers out there who do. The scheme has paid for training, induction, equipment and their wages and we will be keeping them both on after the initial 6 months because they do now have the training and experience. I appreciate this isn't your experience or that of PPs but just to say the scheme has worked for us so it's not completely useless! Neither were parents though.

In response to your initial question, as others have said, I definitely wouldn't tell her you won't give a reference, that seems odd, I'd just wait and see if she asks and if she does you give a basic reference.

TwuntyFriend · 09/02/2022 15:52

@Cas112

Your being awful OP

She probably cant afford the childcare and is trying her best.

You sound as if you haven't been supportive with her from the start and to be honest a little bit like your looking down on her

I politely disagree.

I think the OP has been very supportive, and it's certainly expected that you get childcare when you have a job - whether it's remote or not.

My son is in school, but has a before and after school childminder so I can work FT. I also work from home, but wouldn't dream of having him around unless he was unwell.

As for costs, she will get 85% of childcare reimbursed by UC so there really is no excuse.

busyeatingbiscuits · 09/02/2022 15:54

@TwuntyFriend but she has to find temporary childcare for more than one child AND pay for it upfront. Neither of those things are easy.

NotSoLittle · 09/02/2022 15:55

NRTFT but all you have to write is that X worked at your company from ?date to ?date. That's it. You don't (and shouldn't) comment on what she was like as an employee.

Original poster
ByMyName · 09/02/2022 15:57

@Bluemonkey2029 I think it’s a great scheme but it didn’t work with that employee. I don’t blame the scheme only the employee’s attitude.

We took on 2 individuals through the scheme. However they have full time hours and we pay the same rate as we do for our other employees. The role is not at NMW.

The first employee I’ve already written about.

The second employee is an 18 year old who has never worked before. He did not have a CV but interviewed well. He’s gone through induction and training and has been coachable. We have already expressed our willingness to keep him on a permanent basis.

So 50/50 for us.

OP posts:
elbea · 09/02/2022 15:57

I have a great employer who is 100% flexible with my hours. My daughter does nursery three days a week at a cost of £800 plus food, nappies etc… It’s only affordable to do because I can bring my daughter to work with me, work evenings and weekends. I appreciate not all jobs are appropriate for toddlers but mine is.

How do you propose a single mother afford childcare on minimum wage for more than one child doing a scheme she has likely been forced to do.

Butteryflakycrust83 · 09/02/2022 15:59

I do not understand how you've jumped to thinking ahead about not giving her a reference? That's quite a leap.

Can you not offer her flexi hours to fit around her childcare?

SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 16:03

Elbea & Butterflaky Read all of OPs posts. Unbelievably, as an employer, OP had already thought of that. She has outlined what changes in hours were offered - all were refused.

Original poster
ByMyName · 09/02/2022 16:07

@elbea

I have a great employer who is 100% flexible with my hours. My daughter does nursery three days a week at a cost of £800 plus food, nappies etc… It’s only affordable to do because I can bring my daughter to work with me, work evenings and weekends. I appreciate not all jobs are appropriate for toddlers but mine is.

How do you propose a single mother afford childcare on minimum wage for more than one child doing a scheme she has likely been forced to do.

We have suggested that she works evenings but she has turned down the offer. She wants to work with her DCs around. It just doesn’t work.

She is not on minimum wage, we top up her salary.

OP posts:
GreenDressRedWine · 09/02/2022 16:23

I think you've been given a really hard time on here op - I don't think people realise how draining and expensive it can be to a small business to have to deal with this kind of situation and how much it costs to recruit, train, coach etc. Hopefully everyone comes out of the scheme a bit wiser and knows what they would have done differently.

MissMaple82 · 09/02/2022 16:43

You'd be a massive 🛎 end if you didn't provide one as everybody needs to provide references. You'd be pretty stupid if you can't articulate some positives from your staff. Nobody is that bad! Besides that, references don't even have to say anything other than confirmation and duration of employment, so you've no excuse not to really.

Original poster
ByMyName · 09/02/2022 17:28

@MissMaple82 if you read through my posts you will see that I said I would write a basic reference but it would be misleading for me to write something glowing about an employee who is refusing the most basic request that during the hours that she is employed and paid by the business, she needs to focus on work and not have the distraction of young children. I am really surprised by how out of touch some people are about basic work requirements.

OP posts:
drpet49 · 09/02/2022 17:33

I wouldn’t give her a reference either. She is a total pisstaker

sonjadog · 09/02/2022 17:50

I think a date only reference is the way to go on this one. Don't write off the scheme though. There will always be people it doesn't work out for, but there will also be opportunities to gain really good employees through it.

JenniferWooley · 09/02/2022 18:58

@SamphiretheStickerist

and only if the parent knows about it and asks? Does that little gem still stand?

You have to know that something exists and ask for it before they will tell you about it?

I remember having a stand up/sit down argument about that with my advisor - in the last century!!

I worked in the jobcentre many moons ago & the policy was if they don't ask you don't tell - basically they ask if they're eligible for JSA & they're not don't suggest they may be eligible for IS.

I used to tell everyone I know to as "what am I eligible for" as a catch all.

caringcarer · 09/02/2022 19:13

You should treat this employee exactly the same as any other employee. Otherwise she will not know what standard is expected in the workplace. You should feedback any issues like having young children running around to scheme she is under.

Original poster
ByMyName · 09/02/2022 19:16

@caringcarer

You should treat this employee exactly the same as any other employee. Otherwise she will not know what standard is expected in the workplace. You should feedback any issues like having young children running around to scheme she is under.
I have fed back the childcare issues to the scheme. A work coach from the scheme will be having a chat with her on Friday.
OP posts:
Cazziebo · 10/02/2022 07:21

The OP has a duty of care to all employees. An underperforming employee impacts on everyone and can make work unpleasant for the whole team. This employee is not more important than the others. She's been given the opportunity and she hasn't appreciated it. I don't know any companies that would tolerate working with children around unless it was exceptional circumstances (like the first lockdowns).

OP - good on you for giving her a chance.

Roselilly36 · 10/02/2022 07:26

@TheDogsMother

Recruiter here and it's pretty standard that companies just verify dates and job title. Many say it is their policy not to provide any other information. Just make this your policy and you protect yourself from being taken to an employment tribunal and this woman gets another chance somewhere else that might be more geared up to support her.
This is good advice.
C8H10N4O2 · 10/02/2022 07:50

We have suggested that she works evenings but she has turned down the offer. She wants to work with her DCs around. It just doesn’t work

If she is single who then looks after the children in the evening?

You say children plural - how many hours of childcare a week would she actually need against the 30 free hours for a 3/4 yr old? Are all her children eligible for the 30 hours? Are the local nurseries taking free childcare vouchers without top ups? What reason does she give for not using paid care?

Then of course, is it even available in her area? If you have numbers of staff with childcare arranged you will know what a nightmare it has been even for those with the money. A huge amount of provision has shut down, other providers have had to constantly close and reopen due to isolation/covid outbreaks.

If none of your other staff have had these problems and interruptions to childcare then I'm very surprised.

As for performance management - I'm sure you know this should have been addressed a lot sooner rather than drift along informally. However expecting anyone to get up to speed and fit in well after long term unemployment, especially with small children to manage, was always going to be a struggle. Presumably the 18 yr old boy doesn't have the same external challenges to manage compared to the single mother?