Refuse to provide a reference

[ByMyName]

I own a small business and we provide employment to a small team.

Last year we took on a junior member of staff through a government backed scheme. The scheme reimbursed the business the cost of employing someone who was on UC and at risk of long term unemployment. In turn we provided training and work experience. Win-win.

This particular employee is on a fixed term contract. If it was not a government backed scheme, we would not have kept her for a week.

She was working from home as most of our staff do since covid. She had no childcare provision and her children would scream during staff meeting. She is constantly late and unavailable during working hours. She also had many sick days. Her work is poor and she has shown no improvement despite training and coaching.

Her line manager has had several informal conversations with her. I asked not to push to a formal warning as it was a fixed term contract anyway.

Can I inform the employee that we will not provide her with a reference?

I can see why your annoyed.

If she has 30 free hours of childcare would it not be worth discussing with her about dropping her working week to 30 hours?

Yabu. You sound mean.

YABU either let her go or do something constructive. I like the PP idea of allowing pt so she works the hours when she has childcare. Then you can go from there and separate it's the job she can't do or genuinely the dc in the background causing the issues.

Honestly, some people will have an excuse for everything and it's rather naive to think they're all just hard done by and in need of support. Some people just don't want to be helped

OP was literally being paid the full cost of employing her to try to help this woman prepare for the work force.

Of course some people don't want to improve but they are few in number and you don't know until you try. OP doesn't seem to have engaged constructively and some of her complaints seem petty. I am suggesting that more could be done to support this employee.

OP was literally being paid the full cost of employing her to try to help this woman prepare for the work force. - spot on.

That's the point of these schemes, not a free labour from highly qualified and skilled person...

It is surprising how many people do not understand what are workplace expectations.

The scheme pays for the employee’s salary but as an employer there are more costs than only salary when we recruit someone.

We would not have been fined or anything if we terminated her contract early. I wanted to give her 6 months of good work experience. She has been trained and coached. She has been told where to
improve verbally and in writing. I did not put any formal disciplinary in place.

The main issue has been childcare. I’m surprised by how many people think it’s ok for someone to be working from home with no childcare in place.

She is not our only employee. However none of our other employees have their children at home when they are working.

@ByMyName does she have any experience at all in the area she is working in? Or have they basically just put someone with no experience into this particular job role?

In fairness, if she's free and you wouldn't have kept her on for a week, then she must be bad!

Personally as others have said, you can just provide a basic and factual reference. However I'm largely on your side OP, if you can't get childcare/fulfill the job requirements (and it sounds like she had been supported) then she shouldn't be in the role. It's hard as a single mum and trying to work. I have been in that situation, I still have to limit my work hours more than I like because I have to balance childcare costs and work. Unfortunately it's the reality for many, many people!
Does she get paid properly for the role? I'm assuming it much more than minimum wage, however regardless of this I'm assuming the idea with the scheme is that you make an effort to build up your skills and impress your employer with a view you may be hired and then further down the line, potentially a pay increase.

Are these schemes offered to everyone? Forced? Or just offered to a select few that apply?

@ByMyName
I'm pretty sure people are generally aware of workplace expectations, but I'm not sure if you adjusted your expectations considering the nature of the scheme. If you truly coached and supported her than fair enough, but I'm not sure you realise that she simply might not have had enough money to cover wraparound childcare. In usual circumstances people calculate if they can afford to go to work when having small children (that's actually ridiculous, but that's the reality of current lack of support for parents). If she was made to take part in this scheme and is paid minimum wage then I'm sorry but you have to adjust your expectations.

No one is saying its OK to work with children around. They are saying that she might need to have this spelt out to her more clearly and that it needed to be addressed

Is this Kickstarter?
We took on 2, one lasted 2 weeks and one will be leaving when her 6 months is up. Pair of them are bloody pointless
If asked we would probably just provide the bare facts - x worked here under the Kickstarter scheme between (date) and (date) and no more.
Why even get into with her before she asks?

@RitaJosephina

OP was literally being paid the full cost of employing her to try to help this woman prepare for the work force. - spot on.

That's the point of these schemes, not a free labour from highly qualified and skilled person...

Our 2 actually cost us money in terms of the time we spent trying to get them to actually contribute One had never actually made a phone call before and the other suffers from such extreme anxiety they can’t make phone calls - this is a key part of the job. One of them we have managed to find things for them to do but it’s busy work to keep them from getting bored. Just because something is free it doesn’t make it any good

@Overandout1

She has some experience in this specific field of work. She came across as enthusiastic during the interview process. The interview process was less thorough as requested by the scheme.

She is paid more than minimum wage and has access to the same perks offered to all our employees. She is not paying anything for the 30 hours childcare. Of course she needs to pay extra for additional hours, but she’s just refusing to put her DCs in additional hours.

Everyone else in the business does.

Your being awful OP

She probably cant afford the childcare and is trying her best.

You sound as if you haven't been supportive with her from the start and to be honest a little bit like your looking down on her

@SparklyLeprechaun

References nowadays say this person worked here from this date to this date. Why wouldn't you?

This. You don't have to say anything to her at all. And any and all references can legally be limited to this

@Cas112

Your being awful OP

She probably cant afford the childcare and is trying her best.

You sound as if you haven't been supportive with her from the start and to be honest a little bit like your looking down on her

She is not paying for any childcare out of her pay so far @Cas112 !!

Assuming she cannot afford childcare, then why would she apply for a job?

Do you really think that someone can work and take care of young children at the same?

@Hoppinggreen

Is this Kickstarter? We took on 2, one lasted 2 weeks and one will be leaving when her 6 months is up. Pair of them are bloody pointless If asked we would probably just provide the bare facts - x worked here under the Kickstarter scheme between (date) and (date) and no more. Why even get into with her before she asks?

Yes it is under the Kickstarter scheme but we topped up hours and pay.

Whenever I have sacked someone (fortunately only twice) I make a point of asking them whether they want me to give a reference for them if I am asked for one.

If they do, I will answer the questions honestly. If they don't, I will not reply.

When giving "bad" references it is important to stick to the facts and only give opinions when specifically asked. For example:
"When were they employed" - give facts
"What was their job" - give facts
"Would you employ them again" - opinion, unless your company has a policy of not re-employing ex-employees, in which case state so as fact.

I would never refuse to give a reference for an ex-employee who wanted one. To do so is a bit cunty to be honest. But neither will I lie or gloss over something if asked.

Do you understand that the funded thirty hours childcare is very rarely free?

She applied for the job because failure to do so would mean sanctions. That's how benefits work, they don't take into account the realities of being a lone parent.

Does your business offer any courses in empathy? Might be something to investigate for yourself.

In all honesty she has probably taken the job because if she doesn't they'll stop her universal credit! 30hr funding doesn't cover everything and if you're a low earner and have any kind of debt with multiple children chances are you won't have the money for the extra childcare costs

@Dishwashersaurous

No one is saying its OK to work with children around. They are saying that she might need to have this spelt out to her more clearly and that it needed to be addressed

It has been spelt out to her since day 1. When she was about to start, she said she needed some time to arrange childcare. We offered her to start in a few months to arrange. She refused and assured us childcare would be in place by the time she starts. She also said that worst case scenario, her mum would have the DCs if needed.

Our staff meetings are usually in the morning, then we all go do our own things. Her DCs are in childcare in the morning. Other staff meet in smaller groups during the day depending on projects. A few of them reported that they could hear DCs screaming in the background.

Her line manager spoke with her and found out that she did not have any childcare in place from 12 on a few days a week. She was again informed that this was not acceptable. She's had it in writing - offering her to change her hours, maybe have a shorter lunch some of the days or work a couple of hours in the evening. We have tried to be flexible.

She will have been forced into this by the job centre. It’s a fucking horrible scheme and IMO aimed mostly at single mothers, because we are the scum of the earth, obvs.

Do you not think if she had a better option for work and childcare she'd have taken it?

As a mother yourself, I'm surprised you can't bring yourself to extend a tiny bit of empathy towards your employee.
Just give her an "X was employed between y date and z date" reference and give yourself a pat on the back for not making another woman's life harder than it already was.

I'm assuming this is the kickstart scheme so she's between 16-24 & you're paying NMW for 25hrs per week because that's all the scheme covers even though you can pay more & offer more hours.

She'll have been forced to take the job or face sanctions & be unable to feed her kids, she's probably been unable to get additional/suitable childcare in her area at the short notice & even if she could she's certainly not got the money to pay upfront - her 30 free hours won't conveniently cover the hours you want her to work as this will have been in place prior to the job starting.

If you have 2 months left & she's at the stage of a written warning already then I have to question your induction & training processes. Someone who has unlikely ever had a job before isn't going to do well with no face to face contact or practical in person support - I'm 43 & worked for the best part of 30 years fuck I'm old & still prefer face to face training in new areas.

There's also no obligation to keep the employee for the 6 months however there may be implications of refunding any monies received if you cut short your participation in the scheme.

But yeah you go ahead & kick her while she's down with your passive aggressive I'm not giving you a reference if it makes you feel like the big I am

OK. Sounds like you have actually really tried and actually you should have just moved to a formal warning much more quickly

@JenniferWooley it the Kickstarter scheme but we have increased her salary and hours. She is treated no different to any other employee.

Her job is not 100% WFH. Our induction and training is face to face. We are not new to WFH, we have been doing it a long time before Covid.

The issue is with her unwillingness to have childcare in place during office hours. We are flexible. We are 4 months in and she still does not have childcare!

Actually, you are wrong about losing the funding. Once an employee leaves (even earlier than 6 months) we are still entitled to a final payment.