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AIBU?

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Original poster

Refuse to provide a reference

162 replies

ByMyName · 07/02/2022 22:35

I own a small business and we provide employment to a small team.

Last year we took on a junior member of staff through a government backed scheme. The scheme reimbursed the business the cost of employing someone who was on UC and at risk of long term unemployment. In turn we provided training and work experience. Win-win.

This particular employee is on a fixed term contract. If it was not a government backed scheme, we would not have kept her for a week.

She was working from home as most of our staff do since covid. She had no childcare provision and her children would scream during staff meeting. She is constantly late and unavailable during working hours. She also had many sick days. Her work is poor and she has shown no improvement despite training and coaching.

Her line manager has had several informal conversations with her. I asked not to push to a formal warning as it was a fixed term contract anyway.

Can I inform the employee that we will not provide her with a reference?

OP posts:
Original poster
ByMyName · 09/02/2022 14:11

@Dishwashersaurous

OK. Sounds like you have actually really tried and actually you should have just moved to a formal warning much more quickly
We live and learn I suppose. I should have.

I will give her a basic reference.

OP posts:
Dishwashersaurous · 09/02/2022 14:13

With hindsight you probably should have reduced her hours to the hours she has childcare for only.

Then say that they can be increased if she has childcare

Original poster
ByMyName · 09/02/2022 14:15

@Dishwashersaurous

With hindsight you probably should have reduced her hours to the hours she has childcare for only.

Then say that they can be increased if she has childcare

I should have done that from the start. This option was offered to her by her line manager but further down the line. She turned it down.
OP posts:
ToWhere · 09/02/2022 14:19

I am rarely surprised at responses on here. I don't see her position as defendable. I think OP that your problem is that you admitted being a capitalist company owner. Had you posted as her line manager responses would have gone the other way. If the scheme was labourer, refuse collector, retail would the employee be allowed to have her children with her and not in childcare? Working from home should be treated the same.

Dishwashersaurous · 09/02/2022 14:20

But she shouldn't have been able to turn it down. No one can work properly long term without childcare as opposed to the odd covid isolation day.

Hoppinggreen · 09/02/2022 14:22

@BitcherOfBlakiven

She will have been forced into this by the job centre. It’s a fucking horrible scheme and IMO aimed mostly at single mothers, because we are the scum of the earth, obvs.
Neither of the ones we had were single mothers
Dishwashersaurous · 09/02/2022 14:24

Bitcher genuine question why is kickstrter horrible? I thought that it was supposed to help people without much experience of work have experience of work

BitcherOfBlakiven · 09/02/2022 14:33

It’s horrible because like I said, it’s mostly aimed at single mothers who are forced to take random jobs, when they don’t have childcare (can’t afford the huge upfront payments), don’t have family nearby to help when the children are sick - which makes them unreliable employees, resulting in situations like this. It does nothing to help them.

Jobseeker19 · 09/02/2022 14:36

If you don't give her a reference how would she get another job and stay off benefits?
Dont be spiteful. Your business also benefited from have someone from the government scheme

Crocky · 09/02/2022 14:37

@BitcherOfBlakiven

It’s horrible because like I said, it’s mostly aimed at single mothers who are forced to take random jobs, when they don’t have childcare (can’t afford the huge upfront payments), don’t have family nearby to help when the children are sick - which makes them unreliable employees, resulting in situations like this. It does nothing to help them.
It’s aimed at 16-24 year olds?
Crocky · 09/02/2022 14:38

And up front childcare costs can be claimed through the flexible support fund.

QuizzicalEyebrows · 09/02/2022 14:39

Just give the standard reference of 'she worked here from this date to that date'.

Maybe your attitude didn't entice her much to want to work in your environment Hmm

busyeatingbiscuits · 09/02/2022 14:41

Is it actually practical for her to get childcare?

Are both of her children aged 3 or 4 and qualify for the 30 hours? Can she afford it - lots of settings charge extras on top of the 30 hours and it only covers term time anyway.
Was it possible to get both her children into a nursery she can get to for the hours she needed? Just because children are entitled to 30 hours doesn't mean you can actually find a space.
How many settings are actually willing to give a 6 month contract for additional hours?

It's not just as easy as clicking your fingers and getting your children into a temporary 6 month childcare placement and being able to pay any upfront costs, deposits etc.

Dishwashersaurous · 09/02/2022 14:42

Kickstarter is for 16-24 year old and there's a process for claiming childcare costs.

Just trying to understand why it's horrible

Hoppinggreen · 09/02/2022 14:45

@BitcherOfBlakiven

It’s horrible because like I said, it’s mostly aimed at single mothers who are forced to take random jobs, when they don’t have childcare (can’t afford the huge upfront payments), don’t have family nearby to help when the children are sick - which makes them unreliable employees, resulting in situations like this. It does nothing to help them.
It’s really not It’s aimed at people under 25 who need experience in the world of work. I work with a company that facilitates the scheme and while occasionally a single mother gets a place it’s really not specifically aimed at them I appreciate being forced to take a job when you can’t afford childcare is awful and should never happen that’s not anything to do with the Kickstarter scheme
busyeatingbiscuits · 09/02/2022 14:46

@Dishwashersaurous

Kickstarter is for 16-24 year old and there's a process for claiming childcare costs.

Just trying to understand why it's horrible

Does it include childcare costs? A quick google seems to suggest it doesn't and you would have to apply through UC as normal - that is, pay costs upfront and then claim them back.
BitcherOfBlakiven · 09/02/2022 14:51

@Crocky because 16-24 year olds can’t possibly be single mothers Hmm ? They are most likely to be out of work long term, and therefore the biggest target for this.

UC advisors are also pretty shit IME, if they can claim childcare via the flexible support fund, I’d wager they will not have been told about that.

I’ve just been for a UC appointment where my advisor started banging on about the Kickstart - firstly, I’m 35 so way too old, secondly I’m a full time student with 18 months left. She didn’t seem to know my age or my student status.

jessy100 · 09/02/2022 14:51

You haven't exactly covered yourself in glory!. You seem a bit mean and vindictive. I feel sorry for the women.

Dishwashersaurous · 09/02/2022 14:56

The flexible support fund can cover childcare costs . Not kick-start itself.

The scheme is aimed at giving people experience of work

N00tN00t · 09/02/2022 14:58

I don't understand why she would be forced into this by UC if her children are nursery age. Have they changed the rules? I'm sure it used to be that these rules kicked in once your youngest is in school.

Lucyccfc68 · 09/02/2022 15:00

@Jobseeker19

If you don't give her a reference how would she get another job and stay off benefits? Dont be spiteful. Your business also benefited from have someone from the government scheme
She has already said she would give a basic reference. Do you expect the OP to give her a glowing reference, so she can go to another employer and perform just as badly there?
busyeatingbiscuits · 09/02/2022 15:01

@N00tN00t

I don't understand why she would be forced into this by UC if her children are nursery age. Have they changed the rules? I'm sure it used to be that these rules kicked in once your youngest is in school.
No, you get 12 months now.
busyeatingbiscuits · 09/02/2022 15:02

@Dishwashersaurous

The flexible support fund can cover childcare costs . Not kick-start itself.

The scheme is aimed at giving people experience of work

It can cover childcare costs, at the advisor's discretion, and only if the parent knows about it and asks?
SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 15:08

@Jobseeker19

If you don't give her a reference how would she get another job and stay off benefits? Dont be spiteful. Your business also benefited from have someone from the government scheme
You see that's the problem. What kind of reference do you want OP to give?

One full of lies just so she can get another job?

OP has 3 choices, no reference at all, a factual one with detail - which would be a bad reference, or a basic factual one.

It isn't, as many people seem to think, illegal to give a bad reference, but employers rarely bother as they have to quite bit of documented evidence to back it up, it has to be seen as a true and reasonably held perspective. That includes positive references, they too have to be true! So many just go with a basic confirmation of the dates.

SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 15:10

and only if the parent knows about it and asks? Does that little gem still stand?

You have to know that something exists and ask for it before they will tell you about it?

I remember having a stand up/sit down argument about that with my advisor - in the last century!!

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