To think this is child neglect?

[Ataloss23]

I don't want to go too much into the ins and outs as its very outing, but im hoping to get some opinions.

A good friend of mine is having a really bad time in life. They have previously had issues with drink - prior to having children - which I believed was under control. This week their drinking in the evening became even more apparent and I'm aware over the past 3 days they have been blackout drunk all day, while in charge of two young toddlers. Their rationale is that there is another relative in the house who can care for the children. This relative is not a parent.

I've tried to support them, offering to take the children for a few nights so they can pull themselves together but this was rejected. I've been supportive through all of their ups and downs, but I just cant support this. I have phoned SS once tonight to ask for anonymous advice, to which they advised, among other things, that child protection is everyone's responsibility and that so very true, it's just so hard to do this to them.

My friend is adament that what they are doing is okay as there is another adult present. Its almost making me think that I'M the one who is being unreasonable as I don't drink very often.

I love them very much, and I love their children as if they were my own, but I'm willing to have them hate me and lose our friendship if it means I know the kids are safe.

YABU — It IS okay to drink excessively around your children if there is another adult present

YANBU - You shouldn't drink excessively while around your children

[quote EmpressCixi]@sadpapercourtesan
You're as mad as a box of frogs.

Or am I? Seems you have accused me of what you have done....Nasty judgemental statements.[/quote]
There is a small distinction, though - I've judged someone who has already insulted both the OP - who was asking for help - and me. Your nastiness was completely unprovoked. Small distinction.

What SS will do with your report isn't your responsibility. Your responsibility is to let them know what's happening so they can make the decision. V good point. You can only do what you can do, sadly.

You sound like a good friend.

@Liveforyourself and OP.
Thank you both.
It was two and a half years ago, or more now. I felt utterly humiliated that I let them get to me so much in the first place and secondly I shouldn’t have sent the image.
What I’m trying to get at here is there’s a difference between being an alcoholic, long term drink issues and sometimes- though not always- drinking because of a hard time (whatever that time may be).
Luckily my DD doesn’t understand all those issues and I fight for her (as does DH) but being her main cater - and a good one at that! (Gave up my career, our former lovely home, have never spent a night or more than 6 hours away from her (in January 2020 when the GMC interviewed me), have no family or state support et etc).
It’s not ok that this woman is drinking a bottle of vodka a day. No matter how hard things are, she should get help. The children in nursery would be a start!
But the other adult present etc does make a difference. I’m just saying be careful because it’s easy to say safeguarding of children comes first (it does) but if she can see the error of her ways TODAY and you make it clear what you will do and why and she doesn’t change, I think you have a point.
I think the threat of SS involvement is a card bandied about too often.
I say this as someone who knows a very upper class family where both parents take cocaine on a regular basis as well as booze etc and recently lost said cocaine in the house: I won’t go into what I will do about that but what I’m getting at is baby out of the bath water - if it is really as bad as her not being able to function normally during the day you need to say something to her first. Just my view.

OP it’s irresponsible for anyone here ( whether professional or not) to determine based on the information given that a referral to SS is not warranted. The fact that SS may or may not take action is not for anyone to anticipate and not a reason not to refer. You have a legitimate concern based on information that is presumably reliable. Make the referral. The SS can seek additional information from the relevant agencies and based on what they discover can decide to proceed with an assessment or not. The GP may be protective or not… we don’t know what their involvement is. They may go out. Any action that results from your referral is the responsibility of the parent who is not caring for their children as they should.

Of course small children are vulnerable around drunken adults even if the grandparent is there. They could fall over whilst picking them up, leave dangerous substances (including vodka!) within reach, forget to shut the front door, leave a pan on the stove or many other scenarios.

If the grandparent isn’t usually ’hands on’ then they are unlikely to be proactive in looking after the children & keeping them safe for several days at a time. Especially as they sound pretty unpleasant anyway.

@fusionchefgeoff they are aware that their actions are not right, that they need to stop. But when I asked if they wanted to stop, were they planning on buying more alcohol, their response was 'honestly, yes'. They previously stopped drinking when expecting their first child, and I genuinely believed from that point the drinking had stopped. I still think they did, I just think the drinking has started again recently and I've just not noticed until it was too late. I've suggested AA before and they won't do it.

Call ss in the morning but be prepared for them to not be of much use unfortunately.

If the children have missed nursery because of this, it is neglect. In a way, the call won't be yours to make when you have reported it to ss. The social worker will decide how to proceed. They will offer appropriate guidance (hopefully).You are doing this from a good heart so don't feel bad about yourself.

@blue4you I brought up this morning with them thst I felt I had no other option than to go to SS which of course they were furious about. I've since been contacted by one of our other friends asking if my friend is okay, as they spoke on the phone and she sounded low. I asked if they sounded drunk and they said a little bit. This was early afternoon I think me mentioning SS has made a difference. If anything, it's stopped them from responding to me so now I have no 'visibility' of their state.

I think you are right to report it. Soc Services should have a record of these concerns. This is alcoholism and the grandparent doesn't sound great to me. The child he/she is unkind to is getting an awful experience from their parent and grandparent.

Also, your friend is unwilling to try to do anything about this addiction- do they have mental health issues?

You say this is only part of the picture and they have numerous other issues.

The whole picture sound like the children are quite small and very vulnerable, probably increasingly so.

Definitely report all of your concerns. It helps build a picture even if all they do at the minute is visit the house and possibly nursery to ask about any concerns they might have. The mum needs help and they just might offer some.

You could try referring to SS directly.

Or if you are aware that she is under the influence you could call the police for a welfare check. They will refer to SS if they have concerns.

The grandparent will be considered a protective factor for the children thankfully.

It obviously isn't great parenting and shouldn't be happening, but I suspect that, assuming the other parent is competent and keeping the dc cared for and safe, that it won't meet the bar for SS intervention.

I would expect the nursery to have tried to make contact with the family, to find out why the child/children are absent. If there is not a plausible reason (eg. away on holiday, isolating for Covid_19), if there is any doubt, the nursery should be flagging this up as a safeguarding issue. So it won't be clear if it was you, or who, that phones social services. Maybe lots of people already have?

Please, please do all you can to keep these kids safe. People with alcohol addiction (which is what this is - addiction - not 'heavy drinking) can pose a real danger. If they pass out and there's a fire... leave a door open and kids wander onto road... need to pop to the shop for more booze and convince themselves it's ok to drive). I say this as someone whose ex 'D'P was an alcoholic. I did all I could to ensure they were NEVER alone with our young child. You are doing a difficult but good thing.

@Ataloss23

I'm very close to reporting to SS. I will do it, just not tonight, I want to give them an opportunity to wake up sober and have a think about what I've said. I've told them that I feel I have no other choice than to report to SS.

I love the kids too much to see them in danger. I just don't know if they technically are in danger because there is another adult present

You’re doing the brave and right thing.

To those saying op is overreacting, out of line etc, maybe she is, but if she has concerns- which she does- she needs to pass them on and let SS decide whether or not these kids are safe. This might be a key piece of the jigsaw that alerts them to a wider pattern of neglect.

Things don’t have to reach the stage of being life threatening for SS to get involved. There are early intervention things they can do to nip it in the bud.

@rooarsome

Parental alcohol abuse is classed as an adverse childhood experience (ACE) and there is a massive knock on effect through the child's lifetime. I think you are being very brave in reporting this, and the poor mother and children need help.

ACEs are a debunked model. The creator has asked for them not to be used to score children as this was never the way it should've been used. Scoring children with ACEs is harming them as a result.

I’d speak to social service - you seem the only one willing to protect the children.

It’s not ok for your friend to behave like this they need help - I can’t believe for one minute that the responsibility belongs to the other person in the house

@MyGPsurgeryisUseless you might not believe it but it is often the truth unfortunately

I've just come off the phone with SS and I feel like the worst person ever. She's never going to trust me ever again.

At first the social worker didn't seem interested as there was another adult present, but I explained that I had spoken to out of hours last night who had told me that this should be reported, and then she took details and said they would check in but there is no immediate threat.

I'm honestly so upset that I thought I was doing this to get her the help she needs, ruined my friendship and killed any chance of me seeing those kids again, and I'm not even confident that they are going to offer her any support, or they'll go before she starts drinking and consider it a non issue.

Nonetheless , you did the right thing.it will at least be logged on the system, so if , or when something else comes up, there will be more information.

And she will know her children deserve better , because you challenged, you didn’t let this situation be normalised.

@Ataloss23

I sincerely hope that your friend is able to deal with this as you mentioned she is going through a difficult time. SS like any other healthcare organization is really stretched right now . I am not saying that those who need help shouldn't contact SS or nhs, it's just that I have a close friend (A)whose friend reported her and she had SS dropping on and off without warning and trust me I knew this A was really going out of her way to manage three kids with their own issues ADHD etc really well. Poor A was already going through so much and felt judged all the time. Again this is not to make you feel bad I am sorry that you are upset. Is there any way you can help by explaining on the helpline what you just mentioned here ? Though I am not sure if this is something they would do. As they will need to close the case which you have asked them to look into unfortunately. I do hope that the mother and the grandparent are coping well as it must be so stressful for all of them.

I hope you are able to mend things with this friend and the kids in time. And I really hope that this friend of yours gets back on her feet soon.

Sending lots of good wishes to this friend of yours and her family.