To think this is child neglect?

[Ataloss23]

I don't want to go too much into the ins and outs as its very outing, but im hoping to get some opinions.

A good friend of mine is having a really bad time in life. They have previously had issues with drink - prior to having children - which I believed was under control. This week their drinking in the evening became even more apparent and I'm aware over the past 3 days they have been blackout drunk all day, while in charge of two young toddlers. Their rationale is that there is another relative in the house who can care for the children. This relative is not a parent.

I've tried to support them, offering to take the children for a few nights so they can pull themselves together but this was rejected. I've been supportive through all of their ups and downs, but I just cant support this. I have phoned SS once tonight to ask for anonymous advice, to which they advised, among other things, that child protection is everyone's responsibility and that so very true, it's just so hard to do this to them.

My friend is adament that what they are doing is okay as there is another adult present. Its almost making me think that I'M the one who is being unreasonable as I don't drink very often.

I love them very much, and I love their children as if they were my own, but I'm willing to have them hate me and lose our friendship if it means I know the kids are safe.

YABU — It IS okay to drink excessively around your children if there is another adult present

YANBU - You shouldn't drink excessively while around your children

CrinklyCraggy

If the other adult, regardless of who they are, is a willing and competent babysitter, I'm afraid I don't think social care will be very interested.

You are wrong about this. Children’s services now take this very seriously (thankfully) as the long term effects of growing up with a problem drinker in the household are much better understood and heeded these days.

@ClaudiusTheGod

CrinklyCraggy

If the other adult, regardless of who they are, is a willing and competent babysitter, I'm afraid I don't think social care will be very interested.

You are wrong about this. Children’s services now take this very seriously (thankfully) as the long term effects of growing up with a problem drinker in the household are much better understood and heeded these days.

It must vary a lot then because I work with a number of children who are living with addicts.

Yes report in the morning. I don’t think you have any other choice. How sad 😞

How are you any better than the grandparent in taking care of the children? I understand it is unreasonable for parents to be drunk all the time. But you said you would care for the children yourself so they could get drunk. How is what you would do different from the grandparent? Are you concerned also about elder abuse? Just trying to understand the situation.

You can report tonight on the NSPCC Web form, they will them email you for further detail and pass it on to your areas relevant people. I prefer to do it over email as it gives me time to compose my thoughts and not miss anything important out.

Are you related to this person you are talking about op? The children are in care of a grandparent as you say then I would probably just offer to help out. It's easy to report to SS but for all you know you could be putting more pressure on the person who is obviously going through a lot ,their grandparent and trust me the children will suffer more in the long run. As you say you are not sure ,may be the grand parent is covering for the needs and rightfully so. I mean this kindly,you do have their best interest but are you hurting that the person didn't accept your help. To me it seems like there is more to the story . Please share if you feel like but don't do anything drastic at least not without considering all options. Times are tough right now for almost everyone.

Crinkly Craggy

I suppose this just proves the postcode lottery nature of our underfunded social care system.

No reason not to refer though - why would you not give the relevant agencies the information?

@EmpressCixi

How are you any better than the grandparent in taking care of the children? I understand it is unreasonable for parents to be drunk all the time. But you said you would care for the children yourself so they could get drunk. How is what you would do different from the grandparent? Are you concerned also about elder abuse? Just trying to understand the situation.

Sounds more like a nasty dig than "just trying to understand the situation" to me

Never ceases to amaze me how quick people are to put the boot in when an OP is obviously worried and trying to do the right thing.

@ClaudiusTheGod

Crinkly Craggy

I suppose this just proves the postcode lottery nature of our underfunded social care system.

No reason not to refer though - why would you not give the relevant agencies the information?

Yes of course the referral should be made. I just wouldn't expect any urgent action.

Whether SS do anything will depend on your area. Thresholds vary depending on resources.
It is clearly neglect. But SS will be interested in the level of danger the DCs are in.

trust me the children will suffer more in the long run

This is an appalling thing to say!

Also, how old is the grandparent there's a big difference between the children being left with a 90 year old and a 40 or 50 year old. As in are they physically capable of looking after them? Unfortunately lots of children live with a parent who is an addict and nothing is done unless they are a physical risk But its important to start forming a picture and to get help for mum if she needs it.

@ClaudiusTheGod

trust me the children will suffer more in the long run

This is an appalling thing to say!

It's true though. If there's a reasonably competent grandparent involved the children are likely better off there than they would be in the care system

I’m really not trying to wind anyone up here: I’ll explain why I’m concerned here that SS might not be the best idea right now.
Not nit picking: was your friend “blackout” drunk (incapacitated I presume you mean, not “merry”, not hungover but drinking during the day and unconscious?
I’m asking because I was referred to SS for being a risk to my disabled DD by Colchester Hospital.
The background- I obviously didn’t drink during pregnancy- did before on a Friday night and sometimes on a Tuesday. Held down very serious jobs with a five hour daily commute etc.
When I had my DD (after a stillborn DD and almost losing my life and the subsequent depression) - who is severely depressed I was in very good form until I was sexually assaulted by my daughter’s paediatric consultant ( on said hospital).
It took me a few months to report it because I was so distraught and unsure of what to do (and thought said doctor was amazing as a doctor) that when the hospital (post firstly not accepting the formal complaint, interviewing me in a very cold way etc, offered ZERO support), the night I got the decision from the hospital I went out, had 4 beers, self-harmed and sent BBC an image of it to the hospital,
They refused to speak to me but sent a nasty and false referral to SS.
That followed me for years and a lot of the staff at that hospital think I’m insane and they’ve tried to prevent me taking my DD to hospital when she had numerous viral chest infections back in October.
Be sure if your assertions is, I suppose, my advice.
Blackout drunk means unconscious. Bear that in mind.

Please do it. It should be taken seriously. The children are not safe. If no changes are made., you need to do it again and again. If the grandparent is passive, then the children are at risk. Drunks are disnhibited and forgetful. They spend all their money on alcohol. They lose any routine, they don’t eat, and they only think about themselves. They rant , they cry, they fall over they lash out. They pass out, they piss themselves. They put chip pans on and then forget. They go out and leave kids alone . They drive drunk with their kid in the car, they invite their dodgy friends back. They get into fights they go bankrupt , they spend a lot of time in hospital. They die. What bit of that works well with being the main carer for tinies?

Sorry don’t know where BBC came from

Parental alcohol abuse is classed as an adverse childhood experience (ACE) and there is a massive knock on effect through the child's lifetime.
I think you are being very brave in reporting this, and the poor mother and children need help.

@sadpapercourtesan
Sounds more like a nasty dig than "just trying to understand the situation" to me hmm

Shut it. You know nothing about me. My parents were hard core alcoholics so drunk parents passed out in their own vomit sleeping it off in the bathtub and on the bathroom floor when I was 7 and caring for younger siblings in nappies is not news to me. Having ANY adult is THE difference between actual neglect and not really neglect...because the adult “isn’t a relative” I mean so what? An adult in full possession of mental and physical capability can care for children, ergo they are not neglected like I was.

The OP has said she would not report to SS if the parents had let her watch the children while they got drunk. So why is it ok for her to watch the kids, but not a grandparent? Someone who she said was “not a relative” when she is not even herself a relative? Are the children actually being left with NO ADULT SUPERVISION at all? Or not? We can’t definitely say neglect if there is adult supervision....

@empressCixi I offered to take the children to my house so that they wouldnt be around their parent drinking. Sorry if that was not clear.

@liveforyourself there absolutely is more that I don't wish to go into, as I think it could be really outing for them. The grandparent is a competent adult, but by my friends own admission, doesn't have much time for one of the children and can be quite mean to the child as a result which worries me about how that child is coping through all this.

I'm not related to them, but I consider them my family. I'm hurt not that they won't accept my help, but that the kids are in a position that they have no control over.

You sound like you really care about this person and you are 100 percent right- they need support and the children need protected from any potential harm. You might find it easier to talk to the NSPCC. They will pass the information on to social services. Sometimes SS are so overwhelmed dealing with emergencies they can be a little procedural in their approach to taking referrals. NSPCC are gentler with callers in my experience.

You must report this ASAP, I would call the police. As I understand, there are two preschool aged children in the care of an extremely intoxicated adult and elderly grandparent. The children haven’t been to nursery all week because of the parent’s drinking, therefore the grandparent has not stepped in and taken over. An intoxicated adult will not be able to keep the children safe, what would happen if there was an emergency? Who is supervising & caring for the children? Where is the other parent? The relapse into drinking will have been triggered by something and the children will be experiencing emotional and physical neglect which is a form of abuse, they will be very scared and worried about their parent. What would have to happen to make you act? You are rightly worried, now you must step in and protect those children because their parent isn’t able to.

As much as it's inappropriate, not sure it's considered neglect when the children are safe and in the care of another (sober) adult present.
I can only assume the grandparent is changing nappies and providing food/drink etc.

But, yes, definitely refer and let SS do an assessment and, hopefully, get help for the parent.

@Ataloss23

The other adult is a grandparent, who lives with them. They have not been hands on in the raising of the children to my knowledge, more present in the home and outings, than alone time with kids before if that makes sense?

It’s possible the GP probably does a lot more than you think to make things seem ok at home. My GP minimised Mum’s abuse my spoiling me within her physical limitations but there wasn’t a lot she could do. I would definitely he reporting them to social services - if only to ensure the Gp is getting the support they need to help the kids.

[quote EmpressCixi]@sadpapercourtesan
Sounds more like a nasty dig than "just trying to understand the situation" to me hmm

Shut it. You know nothing about me. My parents were hard core alcoholics so drunk parents passed out in their own vomit sleeping it off in the bathtub and on the bathroom floor when I was 7 and caring for younger siblings in nappies is not news to me. Having ANY adult is THE difference between actual neglect and not really neglect...because the adult “isn’t a relative” I mean so what? An adult in full possession of mental and physical capability can care for children, ergo they are not neglected like I was.

The OP has said she would not report to SS if the parents had let her watch the children while they got drunk. So why is it ok for her to watch the kids, but not a grandparent? Someone who she said was “not a relative” when she is not even herself a relative? Are the children actually being left with NO ADULT SUPERVISION at all? Or not? We can’t definitely say neglect if there is adult supervision....[/quote]
No, I won't "shut it" how juvenile.

I am also the product of an abusive childhood with alcoholism as one of the major problems. I reckon most people who respond to this thread will have some background experience of alcoholism and the horrific scars it leaves on children's lives. That doesn't privilege your opinions above anyone else's, I'm afraid, nor does it give you the right to be needlessly unpleasant and judgemental towards an OP who is asking for help.

The grandparent is a competent adult

Case closed. And nursery is not a legal requirement for a child to attend.