To think this rebate announced today is a total con

[Viviennemary]

So this so called rebate has to be paid back. It isnt exactly a rebate then is it?

Say 4 people are currently sharing a flat and so have 1 bill between them.

They wil get a single discount of £200. If these people all move out into their own places by 2023 they will then have to EACH pay back that £200.

And they are supposed to be grateful for the help?

@WindyState

Say 4 people are currently sharing a flat and so have 1 bill between them.

They wil get a single discount of £200. If these people all move out into their own places by 2023 they will then have to EACH pay back that £200.

And they are supposed to be grateful for the help?

Assuming they all move out to similar flats and live alone, in total they will be paying 3 times as much council tax.

Nohypocrate

Do you realise that people who start paying electricity bills in 2023 will have to pay £40 a year for a 'loan' they never got.

The companies will make money on this scheme on money we lent them but is bring spun as being lent to us.

We're being conned. It's not the government's money to lend to wealthy energy firms. It's our money.

The more I think about it, the stupider I think this idea is. Especially that those who don't get the £200 still have to pay it back.

@Nohypocrate

Regardless of the pros and cons of this idea that could still be tweaked (if it's felt best), I'm glad if it will help make things easier for you. It's good to hear from people who might benefit, and also as valuable as constructive criticism of the plan, it is important to take on board views of people in your position.

I'm sorry things are so tough and I hope they will get better

It’s an interest free loan, repayable over 5 years. That’s pretty good. I don’t know anywhere else where you get interest free for that period.

It’s there to help with the bills coming into next winter. And repayable when they believe the costs will come down (although of course, as Rishi says, they don’t have a crystal ball, just basing it on what they believe now).

A £200 interest free loan is better than people going into debt in other ways to pay their gas and electric. Ie bank loan / pay day loan etc …

You are right it shouldn’t be called a rebate. Because it’s not.

It’s not ideal because everyone gets it if they want it or not. But I am more than happy to take it and pay it back over the next 5 years if that helps those who really need it.

Forcing people to take a loan whilst cutting taxes on bankers won't help us out of this cost of living crisis. Sunak and the treasury have no answers, they can't contemplate alternative approaches because they all require the people who are making the money to pay more.

It’s an interest free loan, repayable over 5 years. That’s pretty good.

No it isn't. It's a tax. Those that don't actually get the loan still have to pay it back.

I am lucky at the moment I don't need the £200. I know to some it is very welcome. But I am just concerned that a government can force people into debt like this. I don't care what the amount is or that the repayments will be spread. It could be £10 and I would not be happy. It is £200 this time. But what is stopping them doing this again with a much higher amount. I don't know how this can be legal. But if they do it once they will do it again and before we know it we will all be owing the government thousands.

Sunak said on Martin Lewis programme that’s it would be too complicated to make it optional. As it’s a loan doesn’t there have to be a loan agreement signed? What happens if I have to accept it then die?

As I understand it Family A gets the £200 to repay @ £40 per year for 5 years. Oldest dc then leaves home, sets up own energy a/c and £40 pa will be deducted even though they never had £200 as an individual……..

Also if energy prices don’t drop next year ( or even stay the same) do the Govt loan another £200 per household so repaying £80 pa….and so on year on year.

His scheme has more holes in it than a sieve.

As I understand it Family A gets the £200 to repay @ £40 per year for 5 years. Oldest dc then leaves home, sets up own energy a/c and £40 pa will be deducted even though they never had £200 as an individual……..

This is why it's a tax, not a loan. You pay it even though you've never benefited from it.

Lots of people don't get things like child tax credit but they have to pay for it via their taxes anyway.

@oopsIdiditagaintoo

"Lots of people don't get things like child tax credit but they have to pay for it via their taxes anyway."

++++

But taxes need to be progressive ie taxing those with higher income/ wealth more than those less well off.

In your example the DC that leaves home, sets themselves up in their first new or rented home in their first job will be considerably less well off than the parents that received the original £200 "loan". This is a regressive tax.

In your example the DC that leaves home, sets themselves up in their first new or rented home in their first job will be considerably less well off than the parents that received the original £200 "loan". This is a regressive tax.

That's a point I made myself up thread.

Taxes aren't always progressive btw. It depends on the political system in place.

@Suzanne999

Sunak said on Martin Lewis programme that’s it would be too complicated to make it optional. As it’s a loan doesn’t there have to be a loan agreement signed? What happens if I have to accept it then die?

As I understand it Family A gets the £200 to repay @ £40 per year for 5 years. Oldest dc then leaves home, sets up own energy a/c and £40 pa will be deducted even though they never had £200 as an individual……..

Also if energy prices don’t drop next year ( or even stay the same) do the Govt loan another £200 per household so repaying £80 pa….and so on year on year.

His scheme has more holes in it than a sieve.

If you die before full repayment then technically the original supply company that took the money from the Government could come after the estate for an outstanding debt. More likely is that they will simply write it off.

You raise a really got point about what if energy prices stay high - do we get another £200 loan and so on.

Also if a new energy supply company was set up after October 2022 and never took the "loan" from the Government then they wouldn't have to charge new customers the £40 repayment and would then be able to undercut those existing suppliers that did.

Lastly if you switch suppliers over the next 5 years then there is the considerable administrative cost of tracking and transferring your £40 repayment back to your original supplier that took the £200 "loan".

The whole thing is really badly thought through.

A better solution would be to make the existing old person's winter fuel allowance of £400 taxable income to make sure it goes to the poorer pensioners. Then take the money saved to extend it to all low income households, a bit like Universal Credit.

@oopsIdiditagaintoo

My apologies for not reading your previous post. I posted on the fly whilst doing the laundry!

[quote 1dayatatime]@oopsIdiditagaintoo

My apologies for not reading your previous post. I posted on the fly whilst doing the laundry![/quote]
No worries! I think we're in agreement.

I think this is a terrible idea. It's a bit like VAT in that it isn't really progressive.

I'd rather they just gave £200 to those on low incomes. Link it to UC / DLA / pension credits, or something along those lines.

They've tried to dress it up as being help for everyone and failed miserably.

How will they ever keep track of this? I have been with 4 energy companies in the last 5 years! Even if you don't switch to get the best deal, what about people that move house, or emigrate. What about people who get divorced and move to a new house?

How will they ever keep track of which household stillmowes money? The only way they could realistically do it would be to link it to the meter itself via the MPAN number. So anyone moving house in the next 5 years to a non new build will have to pay off someone else's installments. Fine if they're leaving a house with a similar debt but what if they're coming from abroad or moving out from home or getting divorced?

Who would try and implement such an overly complicated system?

@Mennex

How will they ever keep track of this? I have been with 4 energy companies in the last 5 years! Even if you don't switch to get the best deal, what about people that move house, or emigrate. What about people who get divorced and move to a new house?

How will they ever keep track of which household stillmowes money? The only way they could realistically do it would be to link it to the meter itself via the MPAN number. So anyone moving house in the next 5 years to a non new build will have to pay off someone else's installments. Fine if they're leaving a house with a similar debt but what if they're coming from abroad or moving out from home or getting divorced?

Who would try and implement such an overly complicated system?

It isn't that complicated.

Everyone who has a gas and electricity account on 1st October 22 will get a £200 credit.

Everyone who has a gas and electricity account from 2023 onwards will pay an extra £40 a year for 5 years.

But I am more than happy to take it and pay it back over the next 5 years if that helps those who really need it.

But it doesn't! It's not really helping anyone

His scheme has more holes in it than a sieve.

It's a sieve without the mesh.

My current position is I MAY get help if I apply and allow the council to decide I'm worthy or not. But I may not. I'm trying to find a new place to live as because of my disability worsening I can no longer manage in my current home.

So It's entirely possible I WON'T get any help in this flat but when I move to a new one I'll be repaying the help I NEVER got!

So no it's absolutely not helping those of us worse off!

It is definitely a con for people who buy/rent their first home after the £200 payment as according to Martin Lewis they will automatically make the 5 yearly £40 payments too!

@Furrydogmum

It is definitely a con for people who buy/rent their first home after the £200 payment as according to Martin Lewis they will automatically make the 5 yearly £40 payments too!

Conversely if you were to (for example) move in with a partner when you'd previously both had your own homes you'd only repay £200 instead of £400.

If four people share it's unlikely the bill will be in all 4 names. Usually bill is in just one name even in two adults household AFAIK.

@Viviennemary

If four people share it's unlikely the bill will be in all 4 names. Usually bill is in just one name even in two adults household AFAIK.

Yes. Our energy company refused to have both DP and me on the bill. They told us only one name allowed.

And when I used to houseshare, just one person was on the bill and the rest of us paid our share to that particular flatmate.

And repayable when they believe the costs will come down (although of course, as Rishi says, they don’t have a crystal ball, just basing it on what they believe now).

Well it would help if we invested in our own natural resources - our coal and gas, instead of increasingly expensive supply imported from other countries. Particularly when there's current diplomatic tensions. (More environmentally friendly too, due to lower travel carbon footprint).

better solution would be to make the existing old person's winter fuel allowance of £400 taxable income to make sure it goes to the poorer pensioners. Then take the money saved to extend it to all low income households, a bit like Universal Credit.

That would exclude the many households really struggling but who are just a little above the UC/benefits threshold.

@Tealightsandd just commented on my thread I don't know why we're not investing in tidal and wind power a lot more in this country! We've great access to tidal power!