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Original poster

Boris Downfall Part 5

999 replies

Rinoachicken · 31/01/2022 16:34

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OP posts:
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13
UnconditionalSurrender · 01/02/2022 10:02

LakieLady I've read elsewhere that, while there are 54 or more Tory MPs prepared to put in letters, they don't want to do it yet because they don't think they'd get a majority in subsequent VONC

I agree with this. As unbelievable as it seems. There will be just a continuous drip of scandal and eventually something will cut through to the MPS. Something totally random that will trigger them.

DePfeffoff · 01/02/2022 10:10

I do wish Hoyle would at least try to make Johnson answer questions occasionally. He should have called him out when he claimed he couldn't give straight factual answers about whether he was at the 13th November party because of the police investigation - there was no reason whatsoever why he couldn't. And everyone is sick of the answer to every difficult question being "Voters aren't interested, Ukraine, vaccine, Brexit, blah".

Florianus · 01/02/2022 10:12

[quote Chickpeabiryani]Major change needed to the democratic system of this country. Proportional representation needed to make every vote count. All the time we have this first past the post system this government will manipulate constituency borders to work in their favour.

I will be joining this next weekend:

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/the-government-arent-listening-make-your-voices-heard-on-5th-february/[/quote]
We had a referendum on proportional representation in 2011, and it was rejected by 68% of voters.

Florianus · 01/02/2022 10:17

@Peregrina

But I note Florianus that you are not answering my question.

You do appear to have missed the point that this is yet another group of people who are angered by Johnson's behaviour, which looks very slippery in their eyes, even though he managed to find a technicality, which they (stupidly perhaps) didn't.

Jeez. The answer to your question is that Johnson did NOT find a technicality. As Westminster Cathedral stated, the same rule applies to everyone.

Now, I suggest you start a new thread on the Johnson marriage, as requested by ClaudineClare, if you wish to pursue your misunderstanding of the matter.

Peregrina · 01/02/2022 10:18

We had a referendum on proportional representation in 2011, and it was rejected by 68% of voters.

We didn't. We had a referendum on the Alternative Vote system which is not considered to be PR.

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/alternative-vote/

jgw1 · 01/02/2022 10:20

@DePfeffoff

The fact that Johnson repeatedly refused to comment on straight questions about whether he was present at the 13th November party is very revealing. There was never any reason why he couldn't comment, and if he hadn't been there he would have been very quick to say so. And, or course, realistically if a party was held to celebrate Cummings leaving, there is no way he wouldn't have been life and soul of that party.

If I were Cummings I wouldn't be impressed. I wonder if he's going to make sure Johnson has cause to regret it?

Odds on something turning up before PMQs tomorrow?
MrsMigginsCat · 01/02/2022 10:21

@Florianus that referendum was nearly 11 years ago now. A lot of water has gone under a lot of bridges since then and the political landscape has changed dramatically. Not only that it was on an alternative vote system, not true PR.

I voted against AV in that referendum but I would certainly vote in favour of PR now and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has changed their mind since then.

Florianus · 01/02/2022 10:22

[quote Peregrina]We had a referendum on proportional representation in 2011, and it was rejected by 68% of voters.

We didn't. We had a referendum on the Alternative Vote system which is not considered to be PR.

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/alternative-vote/[/quote]
Fair enough. I should have said a referendum to see if people wanted to move away from the first past the post system.

CSWife · 01/02/2022 10:28

You can't really ask people to vote on moving away from something without knowing what they are voting for instead (or at least you'd think you couldn't but the Brexit referendum suggests otherwise!).

The AV vote was a concession to the LD coalition wasn't it?

I agree a lot has changed since then. I voted against AV but after the last seven years, I'd happily consider options.

Blossomtoes · 01/02/2022 10:29

@DePfeffoff

I do wish Hoyle would at least try to make Johnson answer questions occasionally. He should have called him out when he claimed he couldn't give straight factual answers about whether he was at the 13th November party because of the police investigation - there was no reason whatsoever why he couldn't. And everyone is sick of the answer to every difficult question being "Voters aren't interested, Ukraine, vaccine, Brexit, blah".
If you want Johnson gone, Hoyle’s doing a fabulous job. He’s a far from stupid man.
NETSRIK · 01/02/2022 10:36

He's going to the Ukraine today to help out. Ffs. Did they ask for a clown?. Boris turning up and making phone calls to very important people is just what they need. Jeez. They will be breathing a sign of relief when he leaves and returns to his party house and leaves the adults to deal with critical issues.

DuncinToffee · 01/02/2022 10:41

Paul Waugh on twitter about Raab's comment

.@DominicRaab says of the Starmer smear: "I’m certainly not repeating it".
But he did repeat what the the PM said.
Just seconds earlier he told @bbcnickrobinson "You're talking to the comment he made about prosecuting journalists and not prosecuting Jimmy Savile."
As part of the deliberate strategy to raise this issue, Raab then said his record as DPP needs closer 'scrutiny', especially on prosecution rates.

@paulwaugh

ClaudineClare · 01/02/2022 10:45

Using Savile is a disgusting and desperate tactic.Angry

Florianus · 01/02/2022 10:53

@ClaudineClare

Using Savile is a disgusting and desperate tactic.Angry
The trouble is, those who claim that Johnson must be responsible for everything that goes on under his watch can't really claim that the same doesn't apply to Starmer.

FWIW, I don't think the charge is fair on either of them.

VikingOnTheFridge · 01/02/2022 10:55

Fair enough. I should have said a referendum to see if people wanted to move away from the first past the post system

It wasn't really that either. I want to move away from FPTP, but I don't want AV so I didn't vote for it.

UnconditionalSurrender · 01/02/2022 11:05

Florianus The trouble is, those who claim that Johnson must be responsible for everything that goes on under his watch can't really claim that the same doesn't apply to Starmer

I think if Johnson could just be held responsible for the lies he personally told and the parties that he personally attended that would be enough to be going on with.
What Johnson said yesterday about Starmer Savile thing is beyond being excusable in any form. Tory MPs with decency believe the same.

DuncinToffee · 01/02/2022 11:18

Putin is not expected to talk to Johnson today after the cancelled phonecall yesterday

ClaudineClare · 01/02/2022 11:21

@DuncinToffee

Putin is not expected to talk to Johnson today after the cancelled phonecall yesterday
But I thought Johnson was taking the lead in bringing the West together to reason with Putin. Or something.
DuncinToffee · 01/02/2022 11:23

Maybe in his role of Othello...

CSWife · 01/02/2022 11:27

Just had two chinooks fly past us here in Surrey on their way into London. Perhaps someone is going somewhere. Helpful interjection

Alexandra2001 · 01/02/2022 11:29

The trouble is, those who claim that Johnson must be responsible for everything that goes on under his watch can't really claim that the same doesn't apply to Starmer

What relevance is Starmers time as DPP to his current role? Did he do anything wrong? has, for example, an ex mistress turned and said he took her on expenses paid trips abroad or funded her business project?

No, there are no such claims.

Currently, is Starmer subject to Police investigation? has he been accused of misleading Parliament?

Bojo 's problems are because he has lied and lied again and again - that is why he is under scrutiny and as the PM, the buck stops with him, no comparison with how well Starmer did as a DPP many years ago.

VikingOnTheFridge · 01/02/2022 11:37

Yes, the two simply aren't comparable.

Florianus · 01/02/2022 11:39

@UnconditionalSurrender

Florianus The trouble is, those who claim that Johnson must be responsible for everything that goes on under his watch can't really claim that the same doesn't apply to Starmer

I think if Johnson could just be held responsible for the lies he personally told and the parties that he personally attended that would be enough to be going on with.
What Johnson said yesterday about Starmer Savile thing is beyond being excusable in any form. Tory MPs with decency believe the same.

I doubt that Johnson will say anything about which parties he attended, given that Sue Gray has declined to report on personnel and the Met don't want names mentioned. We will just have to wait until the full report is published.

As for the comment on Keir Starmer - I don't see it as "beyond excusable" but probably inaccurate since there is no evidence that Starmer (as DPP) decided not to prosecute Savile. It was most likely one of Starmer's staff who took the decision - and we do not know if he referred it up to his boss. As I have said time and again - ministers simply do not have the time to oversee everything that goes on in their departments.

Florianus · 01/02/2022 11:44

Alexandra2001:
Bojo 's problems are because he has lied and lied again and again - that is why he is under scrutiny and as the PM, the buck stops with him, no comparison with how well Starmer did as a DPP many years ago.

If you believe that the buck stops with Johnson, then it is only logical to say that the buck stopped with Starmer when he was DPP.

As I said, I think that is wrong. As far as I know, the Savile decision was taken by one of Starmer's staff at the time and I don't see why he should be blamed for it.

Similarly, if parties were organised by Johnson's staff, I don't see that he should be blamed for them.

Lying is a different matter and is, regrettably, something that most clueful people would have expected upon the election of Johnson.

countrygirl99 · 01/02/2022 11:56

Johnson may not be responsible for other people's action but he is responsible for the lies he told both in Parliament and to the Queen.