COW

[Suzi888]

chooseveg.com/blog/documentary-cow/

Anyone watched this… I can’t bring myself to watch it, but it’ll be coming to cinemas shortly.

What is the best milk substitute you have tried? Specifically when added to tea, I don’t mind the substitutes in cereal but my tea tastes grim without milk.

[quote Cam77]@Benvolio

As someone who is currently vegetarian, not vegan, I’d love to get on board with this sort of thing. But everything I’ve read, and basic logic, tells me that the world’s (ever increasing) demand for meat/dairy products + the very essence (low consumer price/high overall profit) of the capitalist system - it simply cannot fulfill even a fraction of humans demand for meat + dairy in a humane way. Particularly for us in the US and Europe - we’d all have to reduce our consumption by about 5x. The numbers just don’t add up.[/quote]
Yes me too. My priority is the environment. I don't think it's wrong on principle to farm and kill animals for food, as long as you never waste any of the product, you don't damage the food chain with antibiotics, sewage run-off, fuel emissions, virgin forest annihilation etc etc, and there's no animal cruelty (so that basically means eat local, which for me, luckily equals grass-fed) and organic and, most importantly, as you say, eat it in much smaller quantities.

But Hollis Mead is an example of how, where the climate is right for dairy (which incidentally humans have had for longer than other agriculture, so long that depending on where your ancestors came from it is written in your genes) we can get it right at least for the local population. (It's expensive though, as it should be).

Im in agreement with the larger picture, of the vast numbers of mouths to feed and the limited resources the earth has to do it with, especially if everyone want USA levels of animal protein. But while people like Hollis Mead exist, I'd rather contribute to keeping them going than buy long-distance transported, highly packaged almond milk or whatever full of processed vitamins, stabilisers and shite.

My almost vegan geographer daughter and others may change my mind yet, but for now there's a difference between the global and the local that means on balance, I feel I can and should choose dairy over plant alternatives, whilst also eating all the British chickpeas, lentils and seeds. Look up Hodmedods for these, everyone!

This is directly opposite my house and I talk to the farmer, plus I see other farmers some of which who let them cows out in nicer weather and have food for them outside. I have been in this barn as we have taken over water when his supply runs out and helped fix this barn when the metal sheets fall in. It’s a dark prison for months of the year and not a great existence for them and as for checking multiple times a day.... once a day if they are lucky and I know this as I work from home and with no passing traffic I hear the tractor. The old muck goes on the fields after the cows get put into the barn in October time so once a year. And a lot of the black plastic that is used to wrap the bales is picked up my myself or DH and put in our bin before it ends up blowing from the road to the fields. These are the same cows that when they are in the field have worked out how to escape as the gate is tied together with string and trample my garden if I forget to shut our gate. I may not be a farmer but this is opposite my house and I herd up his stray sheep and cows and put them back on his fields to keep them safe.
Why are you not reporting this hell hole to the RSPCA?

I can’t watch anything like this type of film. I have been vegetarian since the 80s (I could never digest meat and I can’t stand the smell) and realised I was allergic to dairy about 15 years ago so although I have had the odd egg (friend used to bring them round from her hens) I became sort of vegan by default.

Turns out I am not actually allergic to dairy. Just the stuff they put in the feed for the cattle which then comes through to the milk which is also in the Covid vaccine and hair dye and everything else I am allergic to.

@SuperSocks things have changed, very few male calves are born now due to sexed semen (less than 10%). Those that are born aren’t allowed to be killed at birth on UK farms as of 2021.

I heard today from an independent cafe owner, that Oatly is a very dodgy, unethical brand business-wise. Might be worth a Google. But good choice to go for oats over almonds/soya/coconut if you live in Northern Europe. Probably.

Some of these comments are a bit daft. Of course cows should be treated well but to suggest that the cow probably doesn't "want all those babies" is a bit much. They aren't people. She wasn't planning on going back to university to finish her degree and then got lumped with another pregnancy instead. I think we can find a balance between treated a cow well and treating it like a person.

I buy my milk from a farm up the road. The cows have a nice life. I am sure of that because I see them so regularly and I know the farmer very well. I am on the North coast of Australia in a tiny rural community, and I understand that not everyone is able to live close to a dairy farm that actually treats the cows well. I suppose it would be ideal if we all did.

hodmedods.co.uk/

I can’t watch it.

I don’t eat any animal products and like oatly semi. Just the smell of dairy makes me wretch now

If you are buying organic then you are supporting small herd sizes with access to the outdoors. Not saying it's perfect but no worse than the rest of aninal based agriculture. Chicken and pigs are the most exploited animals in this country. Chicken is horrific, once you give up chicken breasts you realise how easy it is to do without them.

@Suzi888 “ I would happily spend a lot of money on a happy cow, that got to keep their children with them (weren’t eaten) and didn’t mind being milked. I’m not sure that’s a thing… and I’m not sure they want all those all those babies either. ”

Search for calf at foot dairy, does exist!

I have reported it to the RSPCA and the local council/ environmental health and nothing seems to have been done so I can only assume either what he is doing is ok or Covid or they don’t have resources to investigate.

That's quite a sobering thought

@LadyPropane

Some of these comments are a bit daft. Of course cows should be treated well but to suggest that the cow probably doesn't "want all those babies" is a bit much. They aren't people. She wasn't planning on going back to university to finish her degree and then got lumped with another pregnancy instead. I think we can find a balance between treated a cow well and treating it like a person.

I buy my milk from a farm up the road. The cows have a nice life. I am sure of that because I see them so regularly and I know the farmer very well. I am on the North coast of Australia in a tiny rural community, and I understand that not everyone is able to live close to a dairy farm that actually treats the cows well. I suppose it would be ideal if we all did.

LadyPropane I agree, the anthropomorphism on this thread is telling!

@Dashel

I have reported it to the RSPCA and the local council/ environmental health and nothing seems to have been done so I can only assume either what he is doing is ok or Covid or they don’t have resources to investigate.

So you've only lived there for two years then

I went veggie years ago because I knew I would never kill and animal to eat it and I wasn't prepared to eat one killed for me. I went vegan because I can't make an animal suffer in the way cows do and it's against my feminist beliefs to treat another female, of any species like that. I've never had milk on its own so had it easy with drinks and can't help. Please listen when I saw don't try vegan cheese until you've stopped all dairy for at least a month. Then only try the cheese melted with something, like on pizza or pasta for a few weeks, a slug of olive oil makes it melt better. If you like that, try it cold. Never take a bite of uncooked vegan cheese while you eat dairy cheese, you just won't like it.

Everyone seems to be talking about taste, but what about nutritional value, in particular for kids? Ds9 has excema and we've been thinking about looking at going dairy free but he adores milk, yoghurt, cheese and I worry calcium wise his bones and teeth will suffer, not least because both of his grannies have horrendous osteoporosis and osteoarthritis. Ditto with the b vitamins he gets from meat.

@StylishMummy

If anyone had a clue about British farming - you'd see this is vegan sensationalist propaganda

Thank god everyone isn't brain washed!

I haven’t eaten meat for 30 years. I drink oat milk in cereal but have a small amount of cows milk in tea.

Despite this I have a huge amount of sympathy for the farmers of today. It is not an easy life.

I also worry about the assumption that a vegan diet is better for you. It is if you have a wide range of veg, pulses, etc.

But vegan cheese - it’s processed shit, nothing else! You’re better off not eating it. In fact lots of vegan food is overly processed unless you’re making your own; just like non vegan food. I also worry about the amount of plastic used in all the vegan stuff.

Also I do find it slightly ironic people replacing cows milk with alternative abs still eating meat and fish. It’s not really committing to animal welfare is it?

I find cow milk barbaric, we also use Oatly barista which is great!

@Scrowy

I'm a farmer and there are some aspects of the dairy industry that don't sit comfortably with me. Not the same ones you have highlighted mostly though.

Don't be under any illusion that dairy cows are being forcibly milked. Being milked is the highlight of their day and they literally queue up at the milking parlour to get in.

Anyone who works with cows on a regular basis knows its pretty much impossible to get them to do something they don't want to do.

Cows are beautiful creatures, some have lovely personalities (some don't) they do have soulful eyes, but don't try and extrapolate that to them having human feelings though.

Don't point the blame at farming, point the blame at supermarkets who have created a market environment where farmers have to use dairy animals (the same applies to milk sheep) as machines rather than farm animals.

People are always going to eat/ use milk. Even if they don't buy pints of actual milk, cheese, cream, butter, powdered milk etc and its by-products are everywhere. There will always be market for it.

Instead of making a superficial change to plant juices why not lobby the supermarkets and major food producers to pay more to farmers so that they be less intensive.

Although we all know that cost will only be passed on to the customer....

Well said @scrowy

I dont eat animals due to my feminist beliefs is PEAK mumsnet. Laughing like a drain. While there are children in this country and all over the world being abused I could not give a flying fuck about cows.

Another vote for oatly milk - particularly the barista one

@TonTonMacoute

I can’t bring myself to watch it

Well perhaps you should if you are going to make other people watch it OP! How hypocritical is that!?

Of course the irony is that what this vegan propaganda will do is drive all the small scale farmers, who treat their animals well and humanely, and which are good for the environment, out of business so that the only livestock producers who remain will be the huge scale industrial operations, that do the most harm. Plus we will be shipping in our food from overseas producers, this causing even more environmental harm.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

At times I wish Mumsnet had a like button as this is such a good reply.

We need to support the small local farmers who do treat their animals well and who farm to support the environment and the local area in which they live, rather than shipping in produce from cleared rainforests and the like that are doing far more damage to the environment and all the airmails incurred rather than supporting you local organic dairy farmer.

@FlamingRoses

Plenish oat milk. It’s the only one that just oats, water and sea salt without all the added grossness like sunflower oil and thickeners!

Limited nutrition in that though?

I like my oatmilks to be fortified with calcium as a minimum.

Oatly Semi (in the fridge) is the best I have found for tea.

I completely gave up on vegan cheese as it all tastes like sick. Then I found Kinda Co and am making myself happily fat and broke on the Farmhouse one (it's cashew based, not coconut - which is where the sicky smell comes from).

Hopefully soon Perfect Day foods will figure out a cow-free cheddar!!