To think it’s disingenuous to say breastfeeding is free?

[Jerrui]

When pregnant encountered lots and lots of breastfeeding promotion- often it’s cited it being free as a benefit.

I have personally found as soon as you actually have a baby and are feeding it there is absolutely zero support. In my area there is no infant feeding team etc just community midwife who told me to substitute BF with FF at two weeks old when baby failed to regain birth weight.

I have spent hundreds of pounds on lactation consultant, double electric pump, milk storage, trying to keep breastfeeding going.

I have added formula top up and was shocked how cheap it is. We got bottles for free in those Emma’s diary type packs, and Aldi formula costs £2 a week.

I think trying to promote breastfeeding as a more economic option to pregnant women is stupid.
I feel actually public funds would be much better spend on training and recruiting to provide actual support to mothers trying to breastfeed, rather than health promotion with misleading, simplistic and dumbed down messages.
I feel it’s no wonder breastfeeding is mainly the preserve of the middle classes when you have to invest so much money to get any help!

And who exactly do you think should pay for you to undertake basic parenting tasks @RantyAunty?

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@wincarwoo - it’s not about monetizing everything rather recognising that womens time (and their lives and well being) have value. Many women find breastfeeding difficult and an exhausting slog. That matters. Our time is worth something. That’s what that quote is saying.[/quote]
Of all the pointless 'women's work' in the world, feedng my baby was the one thing only I could do and 100% felt like a valuable use of my time.

Should I hand baby and a bottle to DH to I can scrub the loos? What a pile of crap - time spent feeding your baby has enormous value and I pity someone that doesn't feel that.

And the bras! Christ alive, I've never spent so much on a bra!

Or the clothes. On what planet can a TSHIRT with a zip justify being £50?

Humph.

@SlipperTripper

And the bras! Christ alive, I've never spent so much on a bra!

Or the clothes. On what planet can a TSHIRT with a zip justify being £50?

Humph.

Why were you buying £50 t-shirts?

Honestly I really don't remember buying anything special apart from nursing bras. I don't remember my friends buying special clothes either.

For sure there were clothes sold with button up fronts but nobody used them because standard separates where in all our wardrobes and a lot more discrete.

Shawls were quite popular but again - I already had one and its something which continues in use long after breastfeeding.

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@wincarwoo - it’s not about monetizing everything rather recognising that womens time (and their lives and well being) have value. Many women find breastfeeding difficult and an exhausting slog. That matters. Our time is worth something. That’s what that quote is saying.[/quote]
I get that. Babies deserve time and effort and that means sacrifice for parents.

It is free. You don’t have to hire a consultant to breastfeed, or use any of the rest of the stuff.

@C8H10N4O2 I didn't, but they were recommended on a BF forum so being totally new to this (am due my first), I thought I'd take the advice of more experienced mums and see what was being recommended. Seemed the logical thing to do.

People must be buying them though, or they wouldn't continue to exist 🤷🏻‍♀️

[quote SlipperTripper]@C8H10N4O2 I didn't, but they were recommended on a BF forum so being totally new to this (am due my first), I thought I'd take the advice of more experienced mums and see what was being recommended. Seemed the logical thing to do.

People must be buying them though, or they wouldn't continue to exist 🤷🏻‍♀️[/quote]
Yes I think a huge amount of stuff is marketed to new mothers. I didn't buy special zipped t-shirts but I certainly bought a few things which turned out to be redundant first time around.

Less forums around in my day - possibly less marketeers buried within them. It was pretty common amongst my friends to circulate stuff second hand and avoid buying short life items which was pretty much the case when I was a child. Perhaps we were the odd ones!

Surely the point is that families shouldn't be told 'BFing is free' because for many it isn't?! Whether that it's got a few basic costs or it costs more than formula? It would be more accurate for promotion to say 'some find it can cost less than formula'. Followed by: 'these are products you probably won't need to buy'! To stop people getting sucked into the consumer marketing side of it.

I found it was all rather factory production-line - all women are the same, all of them can EBF, no one needs formula, BFing is free, supply and demand, which doesn't take into account that women are all different, babies are different and birth experiences are different and all of those play a part in whether you'll be physically able to EBF or not. Or whether, even if you have good supply and get it established ok, your circumstances mean you can't be at home for months - one of my friends (U.K.) had to go back to work six weeks after a CS because her work only offered statutory minimum maternity pay and she was the main breadwinner. Going back to a full time job and commute at six weeks whilst EBF is very different to going back even at six months.

Those who quote the ‘African women surrounded by ancestral breastfeeding knowledge’ stuff… what magic tips do you think they get that we don’t?

@Cheekypeach

Those who quote the ‘African women surrounded by ancestral breastfeeding knowledge’ stuff… what magic tips do you think they get that we don’t?

It's well known that women who grow up in multi-generational breastfeeding communities have much better understanding of the realities of breastfeeding. A lactation consultant may see 1 or 2 feeds which go well, a community of breastfeeding mothers can and do see many many feeds and offer support and guidance on issues and positioning. Lots of communities also practice wet nursing which is helpful to new mothers allowing their breasts to heal and identify difficulties with babies latch by more experience mother's.

Surely the point is that families shouldn't be told 'BFing is free' because for many it isn't?! Whether that it's got a few basic costs or it costs more than formula?

The point is it very well can be free (second child, established at feeding). Regardless, if you don't want to spend any money at all (those splitting hairs about even buying bottles, food etc.) - maybe children aren't for you. It takes time and money, it's unavoidable to an extent.

Also: those saying they spent thousands on lactation consultants- why? Why not just use formula at that point, it does the job.

@Cheekypeach

Those who quote the ‘African women surrounded by ancestral breastfeeding knowledge’ stuff… what magic tips do you think they get that we don’t?

Cultural influence.

It's well known that women who grow up in multi-generational breastfeeding communities have much better understanding of the realities of breastfeeding. A lactation consultant may see 1 or 2 feeds which go well, a community of breastfeeding mothers can and do see many many feeds and offer support and guidance on issues and positioning. Lots of communities also practice wet nursing which is helpful to new mothers allowing their breasts to heal and identify difficulties with babies latch by more experience mother's

That doesn’t really answer my question. What actual tips or solutions are offered in African countries that aren’t offered here? We have all the usual advice on positioning etc.

@poopykins such as?

Nothing magic.

The knowledge of what a normal latch looks like, as opposed to a midwife giving a two second glance and saying "that looks fine" (when it's quite clearly not fine). Knowledge of how to adjust latch and positioning when it isn't quite working. You might not have this knowledge yourself but other women who have breastfed before might do.

Expectation of normal breastfeeding behaviours rather than having everyone say stuff like "She can't be hungry again?" "Stop spoiling that baby" "It's good for them to cry" "He's not sleeping through yet?? Have you tried a bottle?" "How will the dad bond? You need to express for him to feed." "Feeding to sleep is a bad habit" "You need to get that baby on a routine" "Give them a bottle in case they refuse one later" "If you let them in your bed they will never get out of it" and being bombarded with formula ads full of plump, smiley, happy, sleeping, healthy babies and serene mums. (A contrast to the usual newborn experience).

No expectation of being able to measure what the baby is eating, or worry because you can't. No centile charts to stress over. No apps suggesting that you measure the number of minutes per breast ()

Other (probably women) around to take over household chores, look after older children. As opposed to having to try and establish breastfeeding while taking care of other children, housework, admin, school runs etc.

There is also documented evidence that having witnessed breastfeeding makes you more likely to be successful at breastfeeding. I remember the first BF class I went to and the teacher gave us all a doll or teddy and asked us to hold the "baby" as though we were about to feed them. Every one of us held the baby with its back parallel to the floor, exactly like you would hold a baby to bottle feed them. The problem is if you tried to breastfeed like that the baby has to turn their head to the side and that makes it hard for them to swallow, so you get a poor latch. To breastfeed the baby's body should be facing your body. That particular example is easily pointed out at birth but it made me wonder what other examples there are of things we do with babies that we think are normal/natural baby things but are actually based on cultural practices (like bottle feeding). Some of those likely make breastfeeding harder.

The reality is when British women have babies they probably have rarely seen a baby being breastfed before. They might know a couple of people who have breastfed and it was years ago and a taboo about breasts prevents us from asking too many questions. Whereas in a culture that has a high birth rate and high rate of breastfeeding it's likely that most of the older women you know will have breastfeeding experience, and this is being constantly refreshed because of the new babies around. Collectively, that amounts to experience feeding hundreds of babies and it's likely most common problems have been experienced by a friend of a friend. In UK society to access that kind of knowledge we need to look at places like online support groups (which have their own problems) or individuals who are trained and specialise in breastfeeding support and have helped hundreds of women breastfeed. We just don't have access to that kind of experience within our own communities.

It's not that other cultures are magic, it's just that the UK is a fairly hostile environment for breastfeeding in the first place. It is harder here, you're fighting an uphill battle.

That’s all stuff a lactation consultant or peer support worker would tell you, or even MN for that matter. It’s not a fabled secret.

You’re missing the point. It’s actually the other way around. I agree with you. Nobody should be expecting a child to be free which is why the NHS should not be promoting bf as beneficial because, they think, it’s ‘free’.

Number one, as quite a few posters have stated very clearly, it is NOT free for quite a lot of people. So it’s not actually true to state it’s free as though that applies in all cases, when it clearly doesn’t.

Number two, nobody should be expecting to feed their child for free. When you have a child, you need to be prepared to support their needs and this comes at significant cost.

It would be fine to mention this if it were done in a way that reflects reality, eg ‘some parents find this works out cheaper than formula feeding overall’

But personally I would prefer to see no mention of costs at all and more info that would actually help tackle common breastfeeding problems.

@TotalRhubarb

You’re missing the point. It’s actually the other way around. I agree with you. Nobody should be expecting a child to be free which is why the NHS should not be promoting bf as beneficial because, they think, it’s ‘free’.

Number one, as quite a few posters have stated very clearly, it is NOT free for quite a lot of people. So it’s not actually true to state it’s free as though that applies in all cases, when it clearly doesn’t.

Number two, nobody should be expecting to feed their child for free. When you have a child, you need to be prepared to support their needs and this comes at significant cost.

It would be fine to mention this if it were done in a way that reflects reality, eg ‘some parents find this works out cheaper than formula feeding overall’

But personally I would prefer to see no mention of costs at all and more info that would actually help tackle common breastfeeding problems.

Sorry, quite fail! I was replying to poopykins

@Cheekypeach - the solutions are that everyone bfs so can help out and offer support.

I read in some countries it's normal for the newborn to be looked after and nursed by other mothers the first night after delivery so the woman who has given birth gets a full night's sleep. Same if the mother struggles - someone else breastfeeds her baby. Here, we'd offer a bottle, not nurse someone else's child. It's known that introducing bottles too early can interfere with bfing and this can be a reason why people end up ff even if they didn't really want to.

If you grow up and live among breastfeeding mums you know what breastfeeding looks like - babies can and do fuss at the breast, feed every hour, have nursing strikes - and this is all part and parcel of a normal breastfeeding baby. Here, people immediately lose confidence, think they are doing something wrong and are advised by those around them to "try a bottle" (I experienced similar myself and see it on here a lot - baby fussing, something must be wrong, mother/dh/mil/hv says to give formula to fill the baby up). Things like different feeding positions, breast compressions, biological nurturing and so on, tend to be things you only learn about when you start to bf here. In a breastfeeding community, you'd know it all already and be able to troubleshoot issues before they got overwhelming.

I think it's obvious that in these communities there is far more general knowledge and understanding of breastfeeding, a lot more practical support and therefore a greater success rate compared to here.

@EmiliaAirheart

I’ve also heard: breastfeeding is only free if a woman’s time is worth nothing.

What rubbish! I breastfed two daughters until turned one, never cost me a penny, cheap and readily available. What on earth is a 'lactation consultant'? Being a 'consultant' on anything seems to be a great job creation scheme.

I always thought of bf as free and bloody convenient, milk always the right temperature, no faffing etc

It's known that introducing bottles too early can interfere with bfing and this can be a reason why people end up ff even if they didn't really want to.

But wet nursing doesn’t?

Anyway that all relies on a system where women don’t routinely work, and it may benefit breastfeeding but it doesn’t benefit women socially, far from it, it’s a very patriarchal society.

@Cheekypeach

It's known that introducing bottles too early can interfere with bfing and this can be a reason why people end up ff even if they didn't really want to.

But wet nursing doesn’t?

Anyway that all relies on a system where women don’t routinely work, and it may benefit breastfeeding but it doesn’t benefit women socially, far from it, it’s a very patriarchal society.

Or a system, where people actually get a decent maternity leave and don't have to go back to work 2 seconds later. Not saying that's the case everywhere, but that's what we should be aiming for.

In a developing country ('Africa' is a big continent ) the women BFing will be different in many ways to those attempting it here. In some of those countries the ones who got pregnant naturally will be having babies. The ones who need fertility treatment or had conditions like diabetes, thyroid problems or PCOS are much less likely to be pregnant and then attempting to BF there. The ones who had a fairly straightforward birth because a haemorrhage or need for a CS could well have killed them and/or their baby. The prem babies or multiple births who just wouldn't survive to BF. A very different context to here.

Changing position or latch only makes a difference sometimes, and I found there was shedloads of support for this from midwives, lactation consultant in hospital. What there wasn't was any acknowledgment of all the causes of BFing problems and that you can't do anything about many of them.

It also seems to be common in developing countries for the baby to be supplemented initially (either by someone else BFing them or with something unsuitable like goats' milk) which avoids the problems like hypoglycaemia, dehydration etc. Whereas here, where ironically there is a perfectly safe means of supplementing, any formula at all is frowned upon, women aren't given a chance to rest and recover from the birth.