To think U.K. houses and flats are not fit for purpose?

[Notcontent]

So - I know that there is a housing shortage - but I think too much forces is on getting houses and flats built no matter how small/inadequate, which can cause huge problems for the people living there.

The U.K. has some of the smallest houses in Europe. I am not saying people need huge houses - far from it actually. But homes should have:

• adequate heat and sound insulation
• rooms that are big enough for storage, etc
• somewhere for people to dry their clothes
• etc

I am not an architect but I am interested in this as I have lived in a few different countries, in different houses and flats, and have experienced first hand how small things in house design can make a huge difference to people’s quality of life.

I agree. Ex council houses post war are so much more spacious than new builds.

I was talking to my Dh about this and he was saying its also because of our pensions system
I need him to rephrase what he was saying and I will
Come back and post but I was pretty depressed afterward

@Sceptre86

We have a 4 bed new build built over 10 years ago. We saw many more newbuilds built more recently but the one we ended up buying had better sized bedrooms and a separate dining room which works for the way we live. It doesn't have a playroom but the bedrooms are large enough to accommodate all of the kids toys. The garden is a nice size but not huge. My mum had a 3 bed semi with a huge garden and space at the rear. They were able to extend outwards and up and keep the garden size (got rid of the patio). Mum's house had an original kitchen that was no bigger than my utility room but they made it work till they could afford to extend it (a good 10 years). I would have loved to have bought a 3 bed semi with space to extend over time and when we could afford it but they don't have those type of houses where we live. If I ever moved back to where my parents live that is the type of house I would like to buy one with potential. Yanbu.

I agree with this logic. I would have loved to have bought a house with room to extend over time as we have the money. The vast majority of new build plots have zero side return and minimal gardens so you can't add value and you can't extend.

The vast majority of new build plots have zero side return and minimal gardens so you can't add value and you can't extend.

If they were built to a size and design fit for purpose, you wouldn't have to.

YANBU. There are nationally prescribed space standards which planning authorities can elect to adopt for new builds on their area. As a consequences a new build in London (where they're adopted) now will have more internal space than an average new build in Yorkshire.

I think aside from space standards we should think about new builds that are adaptable / accessible for wheelchairs, other disabilities and general old age, and storage should be included (ironing board, vacuum cleaner). We talk a lot about design standards for the outside but agree we need higher standards for inside

Land cost is massively an issue but you are correct that the volume housebuilders are making huge profits. The issue is that due to their economies of scale they can build much cheaper than the smaller developers - and that's keeping the quality that same. Imagine how hard to compete to buy land if you're a smaller developer who wants to build something GOOD. The poorest quality, cheapest development is the one which allows the developer to buy the land and build.

NIMBYism and our discretionary planning system doesn't help this though. A smaller house builder with some more innovative, higher quality designs can't often shoulder the burden of trying to secure planning permission whereas a volume house builder with a pattern book of tried and tested (secured planning permission!) houses has much more certainty and can absorb the risk and cost of submitting schemes, appealing refusals, etc. If the public were more on board with development the good stuff would be easier to achieve.

The design code and planing system overhaul which was being discussed could have gone some way to achieving this but NIMBYs are usually homeowners who are usually Conservative voters so chances of any meaningful change happening are slim to none.

I'm not allowed to dry washing, in my own garden
Oh and there's no space for a tumble dryer

@Otherpeoplesteens

The vast majority of new build plots have zero side return and minimal gardens so you can't add value and you can't extend.

If they were built to a size and design fit for purpose, you wouldn't have to.

But we were talking about being able to stay in a house from first time buyer through to with children them growing up etc but staying in the same house because it has potential.

@KeepYaHeadUp

Land cost is massively an issue but you are correct that the volume housebuilders are making huge profits. The issue is that due to their economies of scale they can build much cheaper than the smaller developers - and that's keeping the quality that same. Imagine how hard to compete to buy land if you're a smaller developer who wants to build something GOOD. The poorest quality, cheapest development is the one which allows the developer to buy the land and build.

NIMBYism and our discretionary planning system doesn't help this though. A smaller house builder with some more innovative, higher quality designs can't often shoulder the burden of trying to secure planning permission whereas a volume house builder with a pattern book of tried and tested (secured planning permission!) houses has much more certainty and can absorb the risk and cost of submitting schemes, appealing refusals, etc. If the public were more on board with development the good stuff would be easier to achieve.

The design code and planing system overhaul which was being discussed could have gone some way to achieving this but NIMBYs are usually homeowners who are usually Conservative voters so chances of any meaningful change happening are slim to none.

Yep, also very much true. The proposed planning changes have been watered down too much to change things.

I once did a cost break down of the reality for anyone who bought in 'less desirable areas' in the north in 2007 or after in terms of wages v affordability.

For the generation or those living in the south who had benefited from equity gain through house prices going up, it was a shocker.

Anyone who has seen my figures has gone wtf and then promptly said 'i wouldn't have been able to buy around here faced with that'. Which proves me point.

They then all went back to classic nimby comments after doing faux sympathy talking about their kids and grandkids.

At this point i decided they were all a bunch of fucking selfish fuckers who were pointless trying to engage with because the underlying problem was they simply didn't give a shit as they had their house and their kids had inheritance so fuck all else was important.

We rented a 3 bed new build with 2 bathrooms and a downstairs loo for 2k a month. The garden was north facing and it was tiny. Could only fit a bedside table on one side in the 'master'. It really helped us to know what not to even look at when buying.

For the generation or those living in the south who had benefited from equity gain through house prices going up, it was a shocker

It's been the very opposite of benefiting from for the huge numbers of people in the south who are low waged or too disabled or ill to work. Particularly those from the epicentre of the public health housing and homelessness emergency - London. And it is the epicentre. Two thirds of all homeless families in England are in London.

There's not much more deprived than being without a home.

And no it's not so simple as "just move somewhere cheaper". Aside from the somewhere cheaper not staying somewhere cheaper for long if everybody moves there (see the complaints on here about priced out Londoners moving elsewhere), there's also the fact that for many people, particularly the more vulnerable (eg. disabled) there is a need to stay close to their families, support networks, and communities.

Talking of sympathy. There's been little to none for all the Londoners who have been socially cleansed from their local areas over the last 10-20 years.

Remember that lots of large companies 'landbank' in order to keep the price of land artificially high...

citymonitor.ai/government/why-aren-t-working-class-people-living-cities-also-left-behind-4694

This excellent article by Omar Khan looks at, as he says, The lazy and reductive “London is cosmopolitan elite” narrative

One particular casualty is our understanding of working-class communities. This is particularly striking in the presentation of London as being a Remain stronghold inhabited by metropolitan elites.

In fact, the reality is that working class communities, especially in cities, have been just as “left behind” as those elsewhere in the UK. Even 72 people dying in the Grenfell Tower tragedy, a preventable fire which happened within sight of Parliament, hasn’t dislodged the dominant narrative of London as a leafy cosmopolitan elite bubble.

@Tealightsandd

For the generation or those living in the south who had benefited from equity gain through house prices going up, it was a shocker

It's been the very opposite of benefiting from for the huge numbers of people in the south who are low waged or too disabled or ill to work. Particularly those from the epicentre of the public health housing and homelessness emergency - London. And it is the epicentre. Two thirds of all homeless families in England are in London.

There's not much more deprived than being without a home.

And no it's not so simple as "just move somewhere cheaper". Aside from the somewhere cheaper not staying somewhere cheaper for long if everybody moves there (see the complaints on here about priced out Londoners moving elsewhere), there's also the fact that for many people, particularly the more vulnerable (eg. disabled) there is a need to stay close to their families, support networks, and communities.

Talking of sympathy. There's been little to none for all the Londoners who have been socially cleansed from their local areas over the last 10-20 years.

Oh i have plenty of sympathy for those socially cleaned and priced out of where they grew up. Its not restrictioned to london.

But people moving up north having benefitted from equity gain in the south is a real issue and causes real resentment.

Acknowledging it does not take away from problems in london. A quarter of the population lives in the SE. You should EXPECT the majority of the problem to be in the SE for that reason alone.

Affordability issues are certainly not the preserve of London though. Places in the SW and Wales and the Lakes have particularly acute problems with affordability - largely driven by second homes and air b and b.

I am very aware that someone in Swansea can't just take a job in Huddersfield. Or someone in Kendal can't just work in Brighton.

The blanket hate for new builds makes me a bit sad. We have a new build, 4 bed, 3 bathroom property. All bedrooms are decent sized doubles. It's split over three floors which helps to make it more spacious.
Our old house was a 70s 3 bed and it had plenty of storage space but that was really all it had going for it. The layout made it feel cramped.
Our new house has a coat/storage cupboard in a big entrance hallway, a large cupboard in the kitchen. Built in appliances with lots of cupboard space left. Wide landings to allow for cabinets to be added. We have front and back gardens, a driveway, a garage... But it took us bloody ages to find it. We searched through plenty of houses that wouldn't have been big enough. Some of them built in the 60's, 70's, 80's.some new.... They had size issues in the bedrooms mainly, as pp have mwntioned. But surely those houses that wouldn't have been right for us would have been great for someone else? A starter home for one person/a couple? An empty nester?

When we put in for pp for our new house,it was refused,and ,I kid you not,one of the reasons for refusal was that a 12sq metre bathroom was 'too big'. Apparently I might divide it up in the future and make an extra bedroom,and that was reason enough to refuse pp.
Never mind that part of it was in the eaves,and I'm not breeding hobbits.Never mind that planners can't tell you what you can and can't do internally with your house in future. It took me 11 months of arguing and getting our local councillor involved,to get it passed.
Years back,my family applied for pp to build two modest 3 bed semis on our farm,for the families working on it. The council refused,saying that only one large house could be built on the plot. Since we couldn't build for one family and not the other,the land was sold and the developer built a huge house on it.The whole planning and building system needs overhauling.

I completely agree with you, a lot of the new builds now are not only very cramped but also have issues from being built so hastily, and rushing to get people moved in.
Also there seems to be LOADS of flats in my area. Both new & old and no tenants for them? The older flats are run down and the newer ones are small, and I live in a small town there isn't much demand for flats.

people moving up north having benefitted from equity gain in the south is a real issue and causes real resentment

Why do you think many many Londoners have been socially cleansed out of London? For years.

For the last two decades, huge numbers of people (including many from the north) have moved to London.... pricing out Londoners.

People cannot complain when the traffic becomes two ways.

And as for second homes. London has suffered dreadfully from this problem for years and years. Investors snapping up homes to lie empty all year round, second home "bolt holes', air bnbs.

It's awful wherever it happens, but one of the reasons why it's started to spread out of London is because for years nobody cared when it was happening to Londoners.

Hard fact very clearly shows that, whilst becoming an issue elsewhere, London is the very worse hit. In England, at least. Two thirds of all of England's homeless families are in London.

Of course the solution - nationwide - is a mass social housing build.

@LakeShoreD

I’m not sure my Victorian terrace ticks any of those boxes, it’s not just a new build issue. I’ve lived in other countries too and I’ve never had clothes drying space unless you count the tumble dryer. When I lived in the US every place we had banned line drying laundry. Lovely big closets though!

My sister who’s lived in the US for decades, says that line drying there is seen as a sign of either poverty or madness.

K think q lit of UK housing has been built with he purpose just to house people. So much of where I lived was use for coal mining. I lived in a pit cottage that had previously been lived in by miners. Stone built so cold, close together at front and back to very little natural light, jammed in on both sides and tiny back yard. There were two bedrooms and bathroom. I didn't see how hemmed in I felt trying to work from home with no space while my husband was also working from home and doing a degree. We overlooked from all angles. Lively when juts us two but awful with a child.

This is so true. I stayed in an air bnb apartment in a tower block in Bucharest once and it was so well designed for living.
European design puts our rabbit hutches to shame

Yanbu I've moved from a brand new new build to an ex-council house and the ex-council is much better thought out in terms of storage, layout and room size. My new house also has a useable garden as opposed to the 3x2 lawn I had in the new build. that wouldn't drain properly.

To be contrary I live in a 20 year old (bought new)house and it is spacious with great storage - built in wardrobes, under stairs / airing cupboards. It is a town house with living room on first floor though which not everyone likes and I'd prefer a larger garden.

My brother lives in the most hideous 70s badly designed, no storage or insulation house. I'd have mine any day.

Completely agree OP. When you see 1100-1500 sq.ft boxes with 3-4 bedrooms, it’s just crazy. As though a bedroom only needs a double bed - which is not big enough for two people to sleep in anyway. Where are people expected to put their clothes and other belongings? Under the floorboards?