To be appalled by nursery funding for children living in poverty

[Crunchyapplez]

Re. The Times today:

If you work for less than 16 hours a week on the living wage (ie your children are being raised in poverty), then you get only 15 hours of free nursery hours.

If you are a 3 or 4 year old, living in poverty and on a child protection plan (when a child is regarded as suffering or likely to suffer significant harm), then you are STILL not eligible for more than 15 hours of funded nursery a week - even when it is formally recognised that your home is not always a safe place.

BUT a child whose parents earn as much as £200000 a year is eligible for 30 hours a week, fully funded by the government.

Please vote:
YABU: I find this an acceptable funding structure
YANBU: I find this unacceptable

@JurgensCakeBabyJesus

Social care are able to fund childcare if necessary in these cases , I work in this area

Yes - but a CPP doesn’t automatically make you eligible (… and it should).

Yes - but a CPP doesn’t automatically make you eligible (… and it should).

Why should it? In some cases it could be more detrimental to their emotional and psychological well-being to be in childcare (early years education). It needs to be case by case.

15 hours is enough if you aren't working.

I'm a SAHM. My three year old goes to preschool for 18 hours (3 days 9-3) for her benefit. We have to pay for 3 hours a week, 15 are free. She's benefitting hugely from going especially being a child of the pandemic who had very limited access to toddler groups etc. Lockdown hit as she was 16 months old, just about the age where they really start to benefit from playgroups etc.

If she's benefitting from going, when she's a child who is from a financially comfortable and happy home with an engaged stay at home parent who does lots of stuff with her like reading, playing outdoors, painting, baking etc then I can only imagine what the benefits to a child would be if they weren't from an environment like the one that we're fortunate enough to be able to provide.

I also can't teach her school readiness at home. Basics yes, but not how to sit nicely at carpet time, or how to interact nicely with larger groups of children, follow instructions in a more chaotic environment than home etc etc.

I can't see how extra hours would help someone who isn't working. I can see how additional hours for working parents earlier would help them out though especially women who've had career breaks to have children!

It pisses me off also that you can both earn £49,999 and qualify for child benefit but when one person earns over £50,000 they start reducing it and stopping it at £60,000. If it's ok for both parents to earn £49,999 and receive it then it should be up to a joint household income of £100,000 before it stops! But that's another story.

If you only working 16 hours surely you don't need 30 hours of free childcare. You are home anyway, look after your kids
My husband and I both work full-time, nowhere near the 200K mark and the 30hours makes a difference between both of us being able to work or us struggling on one salary as we wouldn't be able to afford childcare otherwise

@Grazca agreed.

Let's assume you're working 16 hours - you have to get from nursery to work which for the sake of waiting/issues is realistically 30 minutes each side so an extra 3 hours.

Having a universal 30 hours would make it easier to pick up extra shifts as offered - many jobs are say 10 hours plus extra, especially entry level type jobs. If you have the 30 hours you have extra opportunity to pick up shifts without having to phone and hope they can accommodate you at nursery by which time someone else has grabbed it ...

I'm in Scotland now and the 30 hours stretched is either 5 long mornings/afternoons (8-12.45) or 2 long days and a short one. Lunch is also included. Much easier to look for a job effectively without toddlers underfoot, or trying to do tough aptitude tests late at night once they're in bed! Still got some chicken and egg childcare availability Vs working hours but even interviews at are easier to schedule with more availability!

It's childcare, not education. If working less than 16 hours per week, why would you require more childcare?

I don't think IN MOST FAMILIES kids of 3 need to be in childcare -/ education for more than a few hours a day. Some parents need them in more because of work, which is obviously different t but that's then about the parents need not the kids.
There may be children with SN who would benefit from more before the September after 4 given some of those will be nearly 5.
If a home is so chaotic that a child is better of in school and away from their parents, SS need to be doing more than putting in a few hours extra at school but this should be available adhoc

The qn then really is - should pare ts not eligible for funding at age 2 get more financial help in top of the current tax free childcare / UC claim for childcare etc

@Hospedia you are correct. I do have the "get up and go" to find stuff. I do have a car, but the vast majority of these groups are accessible on foot. We walk a lot. In fact, my elder son's pre school have commented on his stamina!!
I do have access to the Internet. I would say that the great majority of people do too. If not, there is free access at the library, accessible to most. And before anyone accuses me of a "let them eat cake" mentality, I had to use that service to job search at one point in my life.
As for confidence etc, I actually suffer from terrible anxiety and other issues, however I've had to put them to one side for the benefit of the children I chose to have. If people's anxiety etc is so great, then surely they wouldn't have the confidence to even walk up to a nursery to leave them!
I am just so sick of people making excuses. Thirty hours is for people who work enough hours/earn enough to meet the threshold. If people don't then they either fund more hours themselves or they make an effort to educate and entertain their own kids.

Ds never actually got 15 hours because his needs were too great and this was in a nursery with extra funding for children with sn. He had an ehcp but there was still an issue of finding enough suitable staff.

Same. I have two disabled DC and you never know when someone is going to decide they're suddenly somehow cured because they got a higher mark than expected. I make sure that when help is offered I take it because life is going to be hard enough for them without the system making it even harder.

Oh I know. For example every time we do the EHCP review I worry it’s going to be withdrawn if they think he’s doing too well. He’s only doing better than he would have done because of the help, not because he’s cured and doesn’t need it anymore.

@randomsabreuse

Let's assume you're working 16 hours - you have to get from nursery to work which for the sake of waiting/issues is realistically 30 minutes each side so an extra 3 hours.

Having a universal 30 hours would make it easier to pick up extra shifts as offered - many jobs are say 10 hours plus extra, especially entry level type jobs. If you have the 30 hours you have extra opportunity to pick up shifts without having to phone and hope they can accommodate you at nursery by which time someone else has grabbed it ...

I'm in Scotland now and the 30 hours stretched is either 5 long mornings/afternoons (8-12.45) or 2 long days and a short one. Lunch is also included. Much easier to look for a job effectively without toddlers underfoot, or trying to do tough aptitude tests late at night once they're in bed! Still got some chicken and egg childcare availability Vs working hours but even interviews at are easier to schedule with more availability!

That's only private nurseries, I've heard council nurseries doing mornings and afternoons 8am - 1pm and 1pm - 6pm.

The afternoons are useless to anyone who's trying to pick up work if they already have a child in school.

@Liverbird77 you're assuming that every local area has the availability and accessibility of groups that yours does.

@Peppapigforlife no, if you look at previous posts I've listed a whole load of activities that we do that are available to pretty much everyone.
I will admit that I must be in a particularly good area in terms of groups etc.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it needs to be subsidized like in Norway. Free childcare, for all, from birth. It works.

I have two disabled DC and you never know when someone is going to decide they're suddenly somehow cured because they got a higher mark than expected. I make sure that when help is offered I take it because life is going to be hard enough for them without the system making it even harder.

This is the reason we claimed DLA for our daughter as soon as we could even through we don't need it right now. Every penny of her care component has gone into a savings account for her because when she becomes an adult all of a sudden the therapies like physio and orthotics drop off and finding housing for her will be hugely expensive. This way she will have funds to help her through that until she is able to (hopefully) earn enough not to need support.

That's only private nurseries, I've heard council nurseries doing mornings and afternoons 8am - 1pm and 1pm - 6pm.

Depends on the local authority. Our nurseries started doing all day sessions last year.

But do you also want to create a divided society where children from poor families achieve worse educational outcomes than their wealthier classmates?

@Whammyyammy

It's childcare, not education. If working less than 16 hours per week, why would you require more childcare?

Why is nursery ‘childcare’ but school ‘education?’ Or is school ‘childcare’?

30 hours is for childcare, it’s not based on a child’s need for education - and it makes sense at that age logistically for childcare and education to happen in the same place. 15 hours is 5 and a half days of early years education a week, which for that age is more than adequate. A lot of the learning is repeated through the week, there isn’t additional learning going on outside of the 15 hours all children receive. Children who spend longer in nursery don’t get more formal education out of it, the idea isn’t for them to learn extra - mine does 3 long days, for which I pay a top up in addition to the thirty hours. I suppose 9-3 are the ‘educational hours’, outside of those hours, so 7.30-9.00 am and 3.00-6.00 pm is much quieter and part of breakfast club and late evening club, pottering about while staff get things ready for the day or clean at the end and having dinner. I don’t expect the nursery workers are still sitting with my DS trying to teach him his numbers at 5.30 in the evening so he’s ahead of the others. The nursery teacher isn’t even there when I drop off or pick up (not that I expect her to be).

15 hours is 5 and a half days of early years education a week, which for that age is more than adequate.

Oops, should say half days - weekends are obviously not part of the package

I think instead of offering more hours which I don’t think non working families need as other PP stated they need to bring back sure start centres and better funded centres for families.

If you really want to boost poorer families the whole family needs education sometimes, cooking classes, budget information etc. Breaking cycles would be the best way.

Even If you provide extra child care for poorer families the habits of the poorer family are going to out weigh any education they might receive.

A teacher once said even in primary school you can normally tell which kids are going to become teen parents / commit crimes and it’s normally because dads in and out of jail and it’s the norm for their families to have kids at 16. There are a few outliers obviously but it’s sad that teachers can predict the kids future based off the family they were born into.

Why is nursery ‘childcare’ but school ‘education?’ Or is school ‘childcare’?

Both they overlap.
The first 15 hours of preschool was primarily 'preschool education' beyond that is childcare.

School is similar but to a lesser extent but if you want mothers to contribute to the economy you need schools and wrap around care.

I don’t buy that at all sorry. I bet that for the majority of people who send their kids to nursery it is for childcare not education.

The "free" hours were definitely not childcare for me. In the local authority nursery, I was offered either morning or afternoon, no wraparound care available. So, in order to sign my daughter up for the nursery attached to her school, I actually had to reduce my working hours. I was only able to do this for two sessions.

The remainder I took as funding against her private nursery fees. The amount these nurseries get in funding is tiny actually it barely made a dent in the monthly bill.

They've changed it here now, but only in the last year or so.

This is the reason we claimed DLA for our daughter as soon as we could even through we don't need it right now. Every penny of her care component has gone into a savings account for her because when she becomes an adult all of a sudden the therapies like physio and orthotics drop off and finding housing for her will be hugely expensive. This way she will have funds to help her through that until she is able to (hopefully) earn enough not to need support.

Just wanted to say I think this is fantastic idea. Not that you should have to do it though and these things should be easy for her to access in the future.
My DS’s DLA is currently up for renewal and I can’t describe how stressed I am about it.