To be appalled by nursery funding for children living in poverty

[Crunchyapplez]

Re. The Times today:

If you work for less than 16 hours a week on the living wage (ie your children are being raised in poverty), then you get only 15 hours of free nursery hours.

If you are a 3 or 4 year old, living in poverty and on a child protection plan (when a child is regarded as suffering or likely to suffer significant harm), then you are STILL not eligible for more than 15 hours of funded nursery a week - even when it is formally recognised that your home is not always a safe place.

BUT a child whose parents earn as much as £200000 a year is eligible for 30 hours a week, fully funded by the government.

Please vote:
YABU: I find this an acceptable funding structure
YANBU: I find this unacceptable

I'm in Ireland and EVERY Child gets free (and I mean free) 15 hours nursery in the two years before school starts. Surely the U.K. could do similar. When I say free, I didn't pay a cent for my kids to go. 9:00 -12:00 daily from the age of 3-5 (started school at age 5)

If I was allocated the 30 hours from the get go, I'd be in work by now or growing a business and my daughter would be occupied all day with other children and group activities instead of stuck at home watching TV because I'm too poor to take her anywhere!

@Hospedia
Nature walk (I live in a major city and can still find somewhere to go)
Playgrounds - we walk to them, sometimes quite a distance
Local play centre has been funded by the council to offer two hour sessions for 50p to eligible people. Same place offers food packages for the cost of £5 per year.
Have picnics outdoors in summer, play games and take books with you (I do this often)
Visit to garden centre which sells fish to look at them
There is a lot you can do for free or low cost. Our nearest SureStart was closed, so we walk further to access those we can. I appreciate that's not open to everyone but the stay and play we go to is very poorly attended through choice.
If your local library is closed then people can raise it with the council. Failing that, there's the Dolly Parton book scheme thing. My little girl actually gets those books because we attended a baby bag course regularly.
So many excuses.

@Itstime1

Just to say you’re not eligible for the free hours if you earn over 100k.

Which is annoying as everyone assumes you are but your not. You also don’t get the tax free childcare.

Not complaining as we are fortunate enough to plan for this but still!

It's not that cut and dry, there are things you can do that continue your entitlement like up your pension contributions. It's not a simple case of £100k cut off.

I’m retraining, so currently a student, I’m flat out with written work and on a placement for the NHS but as it’s not paid work we only get 15 hours. We live off my partners salary which is very tight. It really doesn’t work for our circumstances.

If this were 'childcare' it could perhaps be acceptable. But it is NOT. It is early education. It's SO important for children born in more deprived circumstances to have the benefit of this from age 2.

I agree with you. I think my post got lost in the busy thread, but I explained why my children benefitted from it.

When DS was 2 he got the 2 year funding because of his disability and not because of my work status.
A few years later, DD qualified because of my circumstances at the time.

Lo and behold, both of them benefitted from that time at nursery immensely.

Some people can’t see past the the parents though and don’t even realise what the 2 year funding is for/ don’t care.

@funinthesun19

My daughter couldn't start preschool until she received her funded hours at 3 years and 3 months because I work so she wasn't entitled to 2 year old funding and I couldn't afford to send her. That doesn't seem fair to me either. So then being able to do the 30 hours allows children like mine to catch up on the year they missed out on due to having a mother that works!

The 2 year funding isn’t for the parents to have a break while they’re not working. It’s free education for children from disadvantaged backgrounds to help close the gap.
I understand your frustration as your dd missed out, but I don’t think it’s right to begrudge those 2 year places for children who will benefit so much from them.

When my DS was 2, he got the funding because of his disability and was nothing to do with my work status. The way his speech came along after he started was truly amazing.
A few years later, after becoming a newly single parent, my DD then qualified for the 2 year funding. This time it was because of my work status. She thrived more than she would have done if she didn’t go.

Most of us are just trying to do the best for our children. If taking advantage of free education helps children then I’m all for it.

I understand your situation however I didn't say I wanted free childcare while I was working. I said my daughter was disadvantaged due to me working. Which I think is unfair. It doesn't mean I begrudge your children from it, but think its unfair that my daughter didn't get the same access to early education because I couldn't afford to be a stay at home Mum. In fact I would have sent her while I was at work so that I could still spend as much time as possible with her, not used it for a break so I could sit around doing nothing!

In addition to this our childminder won’t even do the 15 hours, despite the fact our child is eligible as it’s not cost or time effective for her (which I get) so have to wait until a preschool place becomes available. We are very out of pocket at the moment.

@Hospedia

Library story time, plus weekend events at the library e.g. Lego/coding/classical association.

Not much good if your local library is closed, on vastly reduced hours, or not within easy travelling distance.

A "prepare for school" weekly free two hour session run by SureStart at a local primary school.

Again not available in all areas. SureStart was decimated by this government, many of the centres are either closed or operate restricted services.

Two free Little Superstars sports sessions per week.

See above.

All of these can be used alongside the 15 hours.

Only if you can access them.

There are some cheap activities, just not as many as there used to be, especially after Covid. All the £££ activities started up as soon as they could, the cheap or free sessions either didn't or started later. Many Sure Starts have closed and the rest often have less sessions. There are some, it's just not as easy as it used to be to access them.

@OfstedOffred

I think the issue is confusion over the extended hours. Those are to promote people working. 15h/week is enough in terms of early years education.

Yes this ^ It is to support parents being able to work full-time. You will get free full-time education the academic year they turn 5 but if you are working part-time, you don't need full-time childcare up until then right? Or am I missing something?

I agree the £100k threshold seems quite high though.

@Liverbird77

If you're not working and are at home with the children full time, there are lots of free things to do to complement the 15 hours.

I am a stay at home mum, luckily not disadvantaged financially, but we still do lots of free stuff each week (and could do more if it was the only option).

Examples:
Library story time, plus weekend events at the library e.g. Lego/coding/classical association.
A "prepare for school" weekly free two hour session run by SureStart at a local primary school. Free fruit is also provided.
Two free Little Superstars sports sessions per week.
All of these can be used alongside the 15 hours.

My son goes to a preschool at an independent prep. 15 hours equates to 1.5 days there. They don't specify a minimum number of hours, so that could indeed be totally free with no top up.

What I am saying is that there is a lot out there.
The problem lies with those people who will not engage. An extra 15 hours is not going to mitigate for that.

Not every area has this. In my city the sure start centres are oversubscribed and the spaces go on the day they announce them. I got invited to a forest school group that's £8 per session! The only group I've found that I can afford is once a week. The library here does a 20 minute sing a long per week and that's it. Also buses cost a fortune. It's a fiver to go anywhere. If you're on UC that fiver every day is a lot. Plus if your nursery only has certain hours available, they might clash with the groups running and you then have an afternoon of nothing to do as you can't afford swimming, or the yummy mummy groups. I've moved from a more deprived area, where my daughter could only do morning sessions as the afternoons were almost empty and she wouldn't have had anyone to play with and all the local groups there were, were in the morning. So we had nothing to do all afternoon. Libraries only recently re opened but even when we went back, they were only open on certain days and closed for big chunks part way through the day.

@Crunchyapplez
PrincessNikla

If you work for less than 16 hours a week on the living wage (ie your children are being raised in poverty), then you get only 15 hours of free nursery hours.

If you are only working up to 16 hours, then you have time to spend teaching your child by going to groups, and other activities.

Or, you could work more hours and take the advantages that that offers

You’ve solved inequality @PrincessNikla !

Not seeing your point there. I work full time, and still made time for the learning opportunities for me DC - less than 16 hours a week, is not even 2 days out of 7 - what is stopping people using some of those other days / hours with their own dc if they choose not to be in work? If there are reasons for not working, then fair enough but for the majority of people out there, there is no reason why they cannot work more hours

I think if you’re thinking of this as a safeguarding concern then these children won’t necessarily be sent anywhere even if they do have funding

Precisely - we always see "improve the funding/provision" on these threads, and then the excuses about why it "can't" be accessed, but the situation's far more complex than that and can come down to what parents simply don't want to do

Much the same happened locally with holiday clubs set up so children could continue to get their FSM. Even with transport offered the take-up was pathetic, because too many just wanted the money - and too often to spend on anything but the children

Scotland here

Every child gets 30 hours term time or the equivalent hours spread over fifty weeks. From age three. Some two year olds are also eligible, and now under the give them time campaign many five year olds will also get an additional year.

Well I can only speak from my own experience, as a mum of an 18 month old and a three year old.
I've managed to find a hell of a lot to do for free or cheap, including church toddler groups as well.
I think, as I am at home full time, 15 funded hours for my eldest is more than reasonable.

@limitlessval

I’m retraining, so currently a student, I’m flat out with written work and on a placement for the NHS but as it’s not paid work we only get 15 hours. We live off my partners salary which is very tight. It really doesn’t work for our circumstances.

That does sound tough, but I presume you made the choice to retrain knowing you had childcare expenses to cover? I am currently retraining, but have waited until my DC are at school even though I would have liked to have done it earlier.

Studies show that early intervention improves outcomes which is why the 15hrs funding exists. Access to 30hrs would improve outcomes even further

Would it?

Too much childcare doesn't always help. Young children (excluding extreme examples of abusive homes) need time with their primary care giver and benefit from this.

Many parents even in poorer homes will be doing a fantastic job of caring for their little ones at home, reading, singing, playing etc.

The 15h from age 3 is when there's a benefit from professional educators as you are starting to build pre academic skills - pre phonics awareness, early number skills etc. Its this part that's a bit harder for some people to do well at home so the government makes sure there's equal access to it.

That doesnt mean that there arent loads of other good things toddlers are learning at home with family in the rest of the time.

@Peasandcabbage

Scotland here

Every child gets 30 hours term time or the equivalent hours spread over fifty weeks. From age three. Some two year olds are also eligible, and now under the give them time campaign many five year olds will also get an additional year.

Yes, DD is Feb born so we can hold her back a year so she's 5.5 to start school instead of 4.5 and get another year of funded hours, which is nice!

The logistics of the 30 hours funding make finding and starting work to take advantage difficult. You have to have been working as of a specific date before each ?term?/half term and you'd have to get the place as well. So if timing is bad you're looking at not getting the funding for a fair while after starting paying which might well push working back into "unaffordable". Better to have a more flexible system if it's actually about getting people into work rather than giving more money to those who already do.

I assume it's messy with a limited hours contract where you get given more shifts most (but not all) of the time...

@Hugasauras they are now extending it from August. So my niece is October and starts at 5.10 months. Dd also October and I'm undecided.

[quote Peasandcabbage]@Hugasauras they are now extending it from August. So my niece is October and starts at 5.10 months. Dd also October and I'm undecided. [/quote]
Oh that's good. I know currently in our council area you can apply to defer for kids born outwith Jan/Feb and it's at discretion of council whether they will provide the funded hours.

Social services can (in my area) get additional hours for child on protection register (if thought this would help).

16 hours for that age sounds like a good amount for socialisation. More hours probably needed when parents both working.

It's definitely easier if you keep working, rather than stop until they're 2. Which I rather suspect is the point given our current political party in charge.

@Hugasauras if you look at let them be children page it explains where now and dates for roll out.

@randomsabreuse yes this is my situation.
I actually used to work for myself but I would need 30 hours a week to begin with to start advertising for clients and putting myself out there again. Not a lot I can do with 15 hours per week to build my business back up again. You don't get the 30 hours until you're earning their threshold and even then I'd have to wait for a place to come up with her childcare.
If I was to just look for a job, the nursery don't even have the availability for me to do more than a few hours per week at the moment and who says a job is going to hold a place for me for September when they do have spaces for the 30 hours. The job centre will likely try and push me into doing some call centre work, which I have zero experience in and is miles away from what I could be earning if I had the childcare to be able to grow my own work that I'm skilled in, again. I couldn't do anything for the first two years of being a mum (single mum here) because I had ZERO childcare funding and zero free time to work or look for clients, or even look for any kind of work. I'm so sick of being poor and unable to improve my situation or give my daughter any decent social life.