To think the NHS is screwed

[jaspercabbage]

Elderly relative had cancer related surgery before Christmas. The surgery went well but there has been no follow up appointment with an oncologist since. Recently they have taken ill again (clearly to do with the cancer) and have been to a&e four times in two weeks. They are treated for the sickness then sent on their way for the same thing to happen a few days later.

They were admitted again earlier in the week and have been stuck on a trolley, in a bay, in a&e for two nights now due to no beds in the hospital. This is an elderly person quite possibly now requiring end of life care and they can't even have their family with them. I just can't believe it's this bad.

I'm also due to have a baby later in the year, could be complications and to be honest I am shit scared about staff shortages and aftercare. What if something goes wrong in labour and there is nobody to deal with it at the time?

How can things have got to this point? The people are crying out for life going back to normal clearly haven't had to visit hospital lately. Although this is probably to do with a lot more than covid - underfunding, Brexit at so on.

Just a rant really but interested to hear other peoples thoughts.

@aristotlesdeathray

YANBU

I'm at the point where I'd welcome a fully funded model like in the US

Having had hospital treatment in both the U.K. and US it's far superior In every way possible

The NHS we all knew and loved is dead, time we move on

The fact that there are people who actually think like this makes my blood run cold. The US model is the absolute last thing we should be going towards (unless you own shares in a US health or insurance company).

It may work for the rich but it in no ways works for the majority of people who are often held ransom by employers because losing health insurance is like falling off a cliff and the horror stories about families going from doing perfectly OK to being totally bankrupted by an illness are all over the place.

God help us all if we copy the Americans (and that applies to just about anything, not just health).

Write to their patient liaison service and copy in the ceo of the hospital.

The PP who said social care is the elephant in the room is right. But most people cost the NHS more in their last six months than in the rest of their life span.

I don’t think the nhs only provides the basics though. They do world class cancer treatments/surgeries/research etc. there are also massive failures (like the OPs relative has suffered) but they are due to things going wrong not by design

Christ, you can really see the 'fuck everyone else as long as I'm alright' gang out on this thread and being proud about it.

Yes social care is the thing that is ‘fucked’ IMO.

The NHS hasn’t been fit for purpose for years. Brexit/covid etc just shows how fucked it is.

We need to replace it with a different model (and no this doesn’t mean the U S one)

Underfunded for years, against a back drop of growing demand.

This is it in a nutshell. Also - reliance on importing clinical staff from overseas (often poaching from much less wealthy nations) rather than investing properly in training clinicians in the UK.

The PP who said social care is the elephant in the room is right.

good point

The new healthy & social care levy isn't even going into social care is it?

We need to replace it with a different model (and no this doesn’t mean the U S one)

realistically how do we do this though & get people to accept that paying more will lead to better outcomes?

It's also to do with patients not being discharged when they are being told and just left taking up a bed. My family member has been in hospital since before Xmas everyday they have told him he will be going home. He caught Covid in hospital put on a Covid side room for the last 3 weeks he's still in the Covid side room. He doesn't have Covid anymore. He's taking up a much needed space/bed of someone who needs it. He was moved yesterday to a normal ward and they still won't discharge him despite being told he's fine to go home but they need to put his notes together. It's been an absolute shambles.

We should all be paying more to get a system like France. The huge barrier to this is living costs in particular housing

I don’t think many people would be happy paying more into the NHS.
I’ve virtually given up trying to get hold of my NHS GP, instead I pay for Bupa cover. This morning I was in agony (with shingles it turned out) and couldn’t get a phone appointment with my NHS practice until next week! So I used Bupa and had a video consultation within 2 hours, and a prescription ready by noon.

I suspect a lot of people would prefer to pay for private rather than be taxed more for a model that doesn’t work.

@fillitup property prices in Paris are higher than in London. We do have an unregulated rental market though and an obsession with property so we often overleverage ourselves in that respect simply because housing gains on primary properties are untaxed. As a rule, bigger properties seem to appreciate more quickly than smaller properties; this encourages people to move further out to buy bigger properties and this means spending more on commuting (we also have the most expensive rail fares in the UK to boot). And childcare is also one of the most expensive in the world due to the way childcare is set up (smaller providers without the economies of scale) and also the need for 2 incomes to service the big mortgage.

i think the big issue is regional inequality. The only regions that are net contributers are London and the SE. A whole country cannot rely on the tax revenues of a region of 18 million people combined...

They do do world class cancer treatments. The outcomes are so bad because of late diagnosis for many many patients.

I would prefer to pay more for a system like France then for private healthcare. Either way we still have to pay tax for those who can't afford private

Not for the next three years @fillitup. It's designated to catch back the missed/deferred/overlooked backlog from COVID.

And the NHS does do some remarkable surgery. A diabetic friend (type1) had a replacement pancreas and is no longer insulin dependent. They waited ages for a pancreas to be available, in hospital for ages, the surgery needed to be redone to move the pancreas because of repeated infections, etc. etc. The whole process took 18 months at a cost running into seven figures £££££££, but it was experimental surgery and the person was selected because they were fairly elderly already. It would have been too risky to trial on a younger person. But what the professionals learned will be invaluable to future treatments.

@onlychildhamster Saying we have an issue with housing costs in the UK doesn't mean other countries don't have high house prices.

We have regional inequality, generational inequality, uncontrolled rents, lack of social housing, wage stagnation all of which is not helping.

I suspect a lot of people would prefer to pay for private rather than be taxed more for a model that doesn’t work.

Why do you think the French model doesn't work?

Not for the next three years @fillitup. It's designated to catch back the missed/deferred/overlooked backlog from COVID.

I don't have much faith in it only being for 3 yrs.

I don’t understand your point. Europeans pay more and get more. It’s less efficient though. I was using the cancer example because it relates to my experience of living in Denmark where survival of late stage cancer is poor because they just don’t provide any non-palliative treatments which are available of the nhs. However you’re more likely to survive cancer because you will probably get diagnosed earlier. I also know someone in the uk who has benefitted immensely from world class cancer treatment ‘free’ on the nhs so I know it happens .

@Davros

I know there are very many genuine bad and terrible experiences but there are also many good ones. Our own experience over many years is good overall. In particular, in the last couple of years, I've had input from two types of physio, long term rheumatology illness being dealt with, colposcopy and more. Ditto DH who has Parkinson's and many incidental issues. SIL and FIL, now quite elderly, eye problems, arthritis problems and more. Other FIL had a stroke some years ago, now quite old and has a variety of problems from falls to skin problems. And many more, none of us have serious complaints about the service or treatment. It can't be a coincidence. We personally live near to two London teaching hospitals, maybe that helps, but the other relatives don't.

Same story here. From having had no need of medical care, my family was suddenly plagued with ailments major and minor. Everything was dealt with: there were scans and MRIs, physiotherapy, surgery, home visits, and the usual winter jabs and routine preventive things we all get. Things are very difficult in the NHS just now; they won't be any better in a private system,except people who can't afford sky high prices will go untreated.

@aristotlesdeathray

YANBU

I'm at the point where I'd welcome a fully funded model like in the US

Having had hospital treatment in both the U.K. and US it's far superior In every way possible

The NHS we all knew and loved is dead, time we move on

Please don’t wish this upon us. USA health care is fine if you have an employer that pays for it or you are very wealthy If you aren’t those, then most medical care is completely out of reach or horrendously expensive. USA chargers horrendous amounts just for an ambulance, drugs cost way more than nhs pays let alone our prescription chargers. Mental health and maternity often not covered by cheaper insurance deals. Nursing for long term conditions not covered. I worked for US drug company- they had a charity for life saving meds in USA for people who couldn’t afford who worked for them- yep that’s right their employees with the insurance they paid for them, still not covered, had to rely on charity. If you loose your job even through long term health condition you loose your medical aid. You have to be incredibly naïve to want the USA model