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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the NHS is screwed

398 replies

jaspercabbage · 25/01/2022 08:42

Elderly relative had cancer related surgery before Christmas. The surgery went well but there has been no follow up appointment with an oncologist since. Recently they have taken ill again (clearly to do with the cancer) and have been to a&e four times in two weeks. They are treated for the sickness then sent on their way for the same thing to happen a few days later.

They were admitted again earlier in the week and have been stuck on a trolley, in a bay, in a&e for two nights now due to no beds in the hospital. This is an elderly person quite possibly now requiring end of life care and they can't even have their family with them. I just can't believe it's this bad.

I'm also due to have a baby later in the year, could be complications and to be honest I am shit scared about staff shortages and aftercare. What if something goes wrong in labour and there is nobody to deal with it at the time?

How can things have got to this point? The people are crying out for life going back to normal clearly haven't had to visit hospital lately. Although this is probably to do with a lot more than covid - underfunding, Brexit at so on.

Just a rant really but interested to hear other peoples thoughts.

OP posts:
VelvetChairGirl · 26/01/2022 10:56

No other country has copied the NHS model. Tell me another country where anyone, [and I do mean anyone], can just rock up to their nearest GP clinic and get an appointment for free? Without paying a small fee, without showing an identity card, without proof of health care insurance, or without valid proof of exemption?

they cant here in the UK, I have seen them try at my GP they get told to piss off and if its urgent to goto an urgent care unit.

even a Chinese couple with a new baby moaning about the baby were told to shove off if they didnt have the appropriate info for registering at the surgery.

VelvetChairGirl · 26/01/2022 11:05

@newstart1234

But you don’t need to change the model of provision to cut fraudulent use. Just bring in ID cards - I’ve never understood the problem with them tbh. Any private insurance cover would require you to verify your identity to get care anyway so it’s not like you can avoid it either way.

AFAIK the nhs doesn’t check eligibility but that’s because of lack of resources not by design. It’s a flaw in the system (which can be fixed with a bit of effort) not with the system, like to poster above who discussed issues with cancer care waiting lists.

thats the National insurance card.
newstart1234 · 26/01/2022 11:11

My NI card doesn’t have my address or picture on it, I don’t think it has my d.o.b. Just a name and a number. Could be anyone

Alexandra2001 · 26/01/2022 11:27

@Imnotafemistbut err your not adverse to using a little foul language yourself are you?

You state the NHS is a Marxist concept but do you even know what Marxism is?

What you are advocating is a 2 tier system where the wealthy get a fantastic service and everyone else who can't afford private healthcare and/or have pre existing get (to quote you) " a basic level of cover"

That is indeed wanting to go back Pre NHS.

drinkingwineoutofamug · 26/01/2022 11:30

My trust has lost 28 beds. That ward was then turned into offices.
We have no patient day rooms -offices
We have no staff room/changing rooms.

We had an email from the ceo
Over 250 staff off, mainly with Covid.
We have the army in the hospital on the wards.
Never in peace time should the military be having to do this.
We have just had an influx of overseas nurses.
To replace I presume the Staff which are leaving in droves.
As soon as I find a job I can do , I will be next.
I've done 17 years in various roles over the years. Seen a lot of change , some good, some bad.
We had no support from those high above during Covid.
The government not only need to sort the nhs. But also put money into social care. We have bed blockers, and I don't like the term, but 13 patients waiting for care. With no where to go. As one put it, they were waiting for dead man's shoes.
But recently had the most Fantastic care in a&e with my daughter.

Alexandra2001 · 26/01/2022 11:30

No other country has copied the NHS model. Tell me another country where anyone, [and I do mean anyone], can just rock up to their nearest GP clinic and get an appointment for free? Without paying a small fee, without showing an identity card, without proof of health care insurance, or without valid proof of exemption?

We aren't discussing the pros and cons of an ID card system, its about funding and plenty of countries use a tax payer model, the nitty gritty of GP/Dental and Prescription charges are an irrelevance.

No one can just rock up and get free healthcare anymore, aside from a life critical accident.

Imnotafemistbut · 26/01/2022 11:35

@VelvetChairGirl

*No we can't. You may, or may not have noticed that the NHS was established a long time ago, as a model of socialistic redistributionist ideology. The actual quality of people's experience was never a consideration. The NHS has never been "decent". That's why, despite the NHS being the first national, universal health care model, no other country has copied it, not even communist China.

The basis of the NHS is the Marxist presumption that you can somehow get more out than is put in, and that is absurd thinking of the first order. Of course as an individual you are free to indulge in the fantasy that you can, but in the real world, that is known as crackpot magical thinking that only appeals to those that feel entitled to have other people pay for them.*

care to look at the price of drugs to the NHS vs the USA?

half the services are already in private hands and the costs go up and up to fund them and the wealth of the nation goes down and down because the Tories sell off all the nations assets to their mates.

I am sure the national train operators in the EU are laughing at us, several of them own our rail lines now charging us exorbitant fares far above that which they are allowed to charge in their own countries, while the Tory government pays out more in rail subs then it cost run British Rail in the first place.

when you go private you go bust, companies priorities ever increasing profits and the shareholders meetings above providing a service.

get out more then you put in, no thats capitalists thinking short term always about money.

we built council housing to encourage good health, give people a decent place to live and you create healthier more capable soldiers and more productive workers who arent suffering so many health problems.

we opened hostels and half way houses to help prisoners rehabilitate into normal life and earn a keep, helped others to get a good grounding after being homeless etc.

we opened homes for the elderly to give them the care they needed in their old age and to reduce the burden on the families so they could continue to work and the hospitals whom would be stuck with them otherwise.

we created the NHS to help keep the population healthy and productive by treating their illnesses.

we created state nurseries so parents could work.

we introduced breakfast and after school clubs so parents could work.

we had free higher education so people could better themselves.

now thanks to decades of Tories.

over 86% of social housing has gone whats left has rents pegged to 60% of the average in the area so scumlords can under cut it.

the hostels and half way houses are gone.

the homes for the elderly are priced out of reach of the families.

The NHS is being systematically dismantled or sold off, take the mental health services for example, mostly gone there is sod all left, you can go to IAPTs (a private firm) to get 6 sessions of mindfulness for your depression that comes from downloading advice from the internet, or maybe the equally bad CBT also ripped straight off the internet, then after you 6, 30 min sessions over 6 weeks you can go straight back round the system again because 6 weeks isnt enough for anyone, or you can be forced if you have the money to step off the merry go round and pay hundreds for private health (from the same companies contracted by the NHS for substandard care).
maybe we can look at the disability aids services also privatised better get fundraising 2k your medical boots cost to make that you cant walk without.

we are now pricing parents out of being able to get nurseries as they cost more then people earn. the same applies to the school clubs, where you need to earn 3 hours of wage to cover 1 hour of club.

and no one is allowed to better themselves because even the OU costs 5k+

do you see where the problem is now? and why all the wealth of this country is getting funneled upwards, if you dont you have your head in the sand deliberately.

The NHS is being systematically dismantled or sold off

I'm afraid that's only happenings in your fevered, big-stat- loving imagination. Given the decades of Tory rule of this country post war, they do seem to be taking an awfully long time in getting on with it! A principled and brave Conservative party would dismantle the NHS. A first step would be to allow people to opt out, take on private insurance and pay lower taxes as a result. Thus making more resources available to those on lower incomes.

Also, a universal health service doesn't have to be an organ of the state. It has to be paid for by the state but after that its funding and management are a matter for finding 'best practice' around the world.

Labour's done more to introduce private contractors into the NHS than any Tory gov't. But that's fine with me, as I'm sure it's fine with all fantasists that believe only a few people have to pay in, but everyone can receive world class healthcare. Why, if you're not an ideologue, would it matter whether your health care comes from a private or state funded source ?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/labour-cant-escape-its-blairite-past-nhs-so-it-should-stop-crying-privatisation

Alexandra2001 · 26/01/2022 11:43

@Imnotafemistbut Look up the cabinet papers from Thatchers time in office? getting rid of the NHS was exactly what she wanted to do...

The only reason they don't, is because its electoral suicide.

Look at removal of the bursary, forcing health workers to be vaccinated, leading to even greater staff shortages - once the NHS is next to useless, they will give you your 2 tier system, incidentally what we have in Dental, Eye care and now in elective surgery.

How paying less tax and attracting more staff to the private sector increases resources for the less well off is delusional thinking.

VelvetChairGirl · 26/01/2022 11:48

No Imnotafemistbut it is happening has been for years, it may still all be publicly funded but the term NHS is becoming a umbrella term for a bunch of private service providers who are rinsing us dry. try opening your eyes its been talked about for years and Jeremy Hunt and the the Conservative government have been caught out on these plans many times but you just keep sitting their with your head in the sand.

try getting some mental health help why dont you or disability aids like a wheelchair or boots.

Imnotafemistbut · 26/01/2022 11:49

@Alexandra2001

No other country has copied the NHS model. Tell me another country where anyone, [and I do mean anyone], can just rock up to their nearest GP clinic and get an appointment for free? Without paying a small fee, without showing an identity card, without proof of health care insurance, or without valid proof of exemption?

We aren't discussing the pros and cons of an ID card system, its about funding and plenty of countries use a tax payer model, the nitty gritty of GP/Dental and Prescription charges are an irrelevance.

No one can just rock up and get free healthcare anymore, aside from a life critical accident.

Well I am discussing them as they're important tool in cutting out fraudulent use of the health care system. Try getting health care treatment in France without the carte identite ! Yes, once again - plenty of countries use a tax payer model . But the NHS comes entirely from taxpayers. The french system costs more as a share of GDP, but has less taxpayer input, as insurers and individuals contribute.

Moving to a french system would still maintain universal coverage, but everyone would be required to pay something when they used it. And the french system has its problems, but it's the best value for money going. Once again - expecting everyone to receive exactly the same service from the NHS, and expecting that service to be high quality as if everyone had paid, is simply magical thinking. It can't be done. Regardless of who the gov is, and regardless of how many more tens of billions we chuck at it. The NHS is based on a flawed model that's why it started unravelling the moment it was founded.

A "free at the point of use" fantasy is the main cause. Imagine if food was made available at the point of need at no change. The quality and choice would be crap. The opening hours limited to suit the staff. All the good food would be purloined by the management and staff well before ordinary taxpayers who are paying for the whole mess, got a look in.

Of course people would complain, and a huge bureaucracy would then be set up to manage targets and try to improve performance. Just like the NHS - but ultimately it's futile. The incentives are so perverse, the only solution would be to make the supply of food respond to consumers' preferences by using market forces and competition between suppliers.

Healthcare is ultimately a service and you simply can't expect quality cost effectively by bureaucratic edict.

newstart1234 · 26/01/2022 11:51

Imnotafeminist - who do you imagine would pay for kids/ pensioners insurance for example? In your ideal which tax would you be able to opt out of?

VelvetChairGirl · 26/01/2022 11:56

Well I am discussing them as they're important tool in cutting out fraudulent use of the health care system. Try getting health care treatment in France without the carte identite ! Yes, once again - plenty of countries use a tax payer model . But the NHS comes entirely from taxpayers. The french system costs more as a share of GDP, but has less taxpayer input, as insurers and individuals contribute.

more strawman just like the beating the poor into starving to death to "combat benefits cheats" who make up a tiny percentage and a drop in the ocean compared to corporate fraud.

Health care is a human right under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and The Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

newstart1234 · 26/01/2022 11:58

I’d support a deposit return scheme for missed appointments but they don’t do it ... because it’s too expensive and won’t raise as much money as it costs.

VelvetChairGirl · 26/01/2022 12:01

@newstart1234

I’d support a deposit return scheme for missed appointments but they don’t do it ... because it’s too expensive and won’t raise as much money as it costs.
I dont support that, thats virtually the same as charging for an appointment, the poor will have to try to save up to pay the deposit, meaning delaying seeing the doctor it doesn't matter if they will get it back in time if they are already choosing weather they can heat or eat and going to food bank, it will hit the poorest hardest.
Imnotafemistbut · 26/01/2022 12:01

[quote Alexandra2001]@Imnotafemistbut Look up the cabinet papers from Thatchers time in office? getting rid of the NHS was exactly what she wanted to do...

The only reason they don't, is because its electoral suicide.

Look at removal of the bursary, forcing health workers to be vaccinated, leading to even greater staff shortages - once the NHS is next to useless, they will give you your 2 tier system, incidentally what we have in Dental, Eye care and now in elective surgery.

How paying less tax and attracting more staff to the private sector increases resources for the less well off is delusional thinking.[/quote]
Nonsense. Whoever won the first election after the war was going to set up the NHS. It was conceived by a Liberal and would've been implemented by whatever gov't got in in 1945, Tory or Labour.

www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/31/without-winston-churchill-nhs-would-not-exist

How paying less tax and attracting more staff to the private sector increases resources for the less well off is delusional thinking

We pay for our own dental and optical care. We are expected to pay for our old age via selling our homes. So why shouldn’t we pay into an insurance that guarantees a programme of care mapped out for our particular lifestyle and genes?

We now have the ability to assess the diseases that our personal genes are liable to create. We also know that one size never fits all.
I think if everyone was expected to take out a health insurance from the day we start work, it would concentrate people into thinking about how they use their body and what they put into their body.

We need a basic duty of care for people who are very poor (not many), people who have lifelong heavy disability and children up to school age. I also believe we have a duty to invest in research and equipment, so all this could come from day to day taxation. NI does not cover national health as it is used in the melting pot of taxation as is road tax.

Imnotafemistbut · 26/01/2022 12:06

I dont support that, thats virtually the same as charging for an appointment, the poor will have to try to save up to pay the deposit, meaning delaying seeing the doctor it doesn't matter if they will get it back in time if they are already choosing weather they can heat or eat and going to food bank, it will hit the poorest hardest

There's no panacea obviously, but that doesn't disproportionality happen on the continent where people who can pay, pay a small fee for GP appointments. The poor are not left to suffer while the wealthy get treated. Better use of pharmacists and putting some serious thought in to whether or not you really need to see a gp would be a good thing.

At the moment we have people sat for ages in GP waiting rooms with headaches and athlete's foot, I've witnessed this myself. Paying for treatment, and ID cards, will also cut out health care tourism.

Createdjustforthis · 26/01/2022 12:08

@aristotlesdeathray

YANBU

I'm at the point where I'd welcome a fully funded model like in the US

Having had hospital treatment in both the U.K. and US it's far superior In every way possible

The NHS we all knew and loved is dead, time we move on

Well done, you’ve played right into the hands of the tories.
DickMabutt73962 · 26/01/2022 12:08

[quote aristotlesdeathray]@Elasmotherium

Again, the vast majority of Americans cope just fine with their model

A small portion of bankruptcies is a cost I'm willing to pay
[/quote]
'I'm alright, Jack' 😂

Twat

Getyourjinglebellsinarow · 26/01/2022 12:11

Underfunded, overused and underappreciated.

VelvetChairGirl · 26/01/2022 12:16

@Imnotafemistbut

I dont support that, thats virtually the same as charging for an appointment, the poor will have to try to save up to pay the deposit, meaning delaying seeing the doctor it doesn't matter if they will get it back in time if they are already choosing weather they can heat or eat and going to food bank, it will hit the poorest hardest

There's no panacea obviously, but that doesn't disproportionality happen on the continent where people who can pay, pay a small fee for GP appointments. The poor are not left to suffer while the wealthy get treated. Better use of pharmacists and putting some serious thought in to whether or not you really need to see a gp would be a good thing.

At the moment we have people sat for ages in GP waiting rooms with headaches and athlete's foot, I've witnessed this myself. Paying for treatment, and ID cards, will also cut out health care tourism.

who knows, I am unemployed I am not entitled to free prescriptions for example because the criteria for the exemption card kept dropping, and it dropped below my benefits level as it counts housing benefit too so no cards for Londoners unless your unemployed and diabetic or something.

now of course it doesn't exist, the cards are only for people with existing medical condition and the poor have to apply for NHS Low Income Scheme. not sure if its online only it only says about online, wouldnt surprise me if thats another barrier just like UC..

www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/nhs-low-income-scheme

Imnotafemistbut · 26/01/2022 12:19

@VelvetChairGirl

Well I am discussing them as they're important tool in cutting out fraudulent use of the health care system. Try getting health care treatment in France without the carte identite ! Yes, once again - plenty of countries use a tax payer model . But the NHS comes entirely from taxpayers. The french system costs more as a share of GDP, but has less taxpayer input, as insurers and individuals contribute.

more strawman just like the beating the poor into starving to death to "combat benefits cheats" who make up a tiny percentage and a drop in the ocean compared to corporate fraud.

Health care is a human right under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and The Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Health care is a human right under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and The Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities

Indeed, just like the French, Germans or Swedes have. So why does that mean I can't be free to make my own choices about the health that I want?

The NHS is redistributionist, and that's nothing to do with "human rights". Human rights would be far better served by enabling health care that wasn't a logical impossibility.

Imnotafemistbut · 26/01/2022 12:29

[quote Alexandra2001]@Imnotafemistbut err your not adverse to using a little foul language yourself are you?

You state the NHS is a Marxist concept but do you even know what Marxism is?

What you are advocating is a 2 tier system where the wealthy get a fantastic service and everyone else who can't afford private healthcare and/or have pre existing get (to quote you) " a basic level of cover"

That is indeed wanting to go back Pre NHS.[/quote]
What you are advocating is a 2 tier system where the wealthy get a fantastic service and everyone else who can't afford private healthcare and/or have pre existing get (to quote you) " a basic level of cover"

No I'm not. If you'd read more carefully, you'd have seen that I'm saying that other health care systems, such as the German, French Swiss ones, work far better than the crap we're saddled with. This is because they enable some state funding without central planning of economic activity, and with much greater patient/practitioner choice.

Do you understand what central planning means?

VelvetChairGirl · 26/01/2022 12:30

You can pay privately, bare in mind that many of the private companies buy slots to use NHS equipment like MRI scanners etc because they are very expensive and it saves them money renting ones that are already in NHS.

what you can not do is pick and choose where your taxes go, whether it be healthcare, war, schools, propping up beady branson so he doesnt have to put his hands in his own pockets etc.

Imnotafemistbut · 26/01/2022 12:32

@Getyourjinglebellsinarow

Underfunded, overused and underappreciated.
Nonsense. Bloated, inefficient, wasteful and increasingly politicised, more like.

Add to that : would last about 5 minutes in an environment where it had to earn its keep by providing a good-quality product.

onlychildhamster · 26/01/2022 12:37

@Imnotafemistbut why can't you pay for your healthcare privately if that is what you want. You can make the same choices, they just cost money. MY DH didn't want to wait for an operation on the NHS so went privately. Paid £200 to claim from private health insurance for the whole year. 1 reason though private healthcare is so good is because only 7% of the population uses it. If more people used private healthcare, there would also be problems.