To think the NHS is screwed

[jaspercabbage]

Elderly relative had cancer related surgery before Christmas. The surgery went well but there has been no follow up appointment with an oncologist since. Recently they have taken ill again (clearly to do with the cancer) and have been to a&e four times in two weeks. They are treated for the sickness then sent on their way for the same thing to happen a few days later.

They were admitted again earlier in the week and have been stuck on a trolley, in a bay, in a&e for two nights now due to no beds in the hospital. This is an elderly person quite possibly now requiring end of life care and they can't even have their family with them. I just can't believe it's this bad.

I'm also due to have a baby later in the year, could be complications and to be honest I am shit scared about staff shortages and aftercare. What if something goes wrong in labour and there is nobody to deal with it at the time?

How can things have got to this point? The people are crying out for life going back to normal clearly haven't had to visit hospital lately. Although this is probably to do with a lot more than covid - underfunding, Brexit at so on.

Just a rant really but interested to hear other peoples thoughts.

@OhWhyNot the NHS is the closest thing the UK has to a religion. I have yet to meet a Tory who doesn't want free at the point of use healthcare. THe tories I know are convinced that the millions of sick immigrants are the reason why the NHS is overstretched. Despite the fact that immigrants are mainly net contributors as they are young and work. And the immigrants also work in the NHS.

The NHs is in crisis in parts due to its own support networks being largely eradicated decades ago.
GP contracts were changed in the 90s as a result it's impossible to see a GP, so what do people do? They present to A&E for all manner of things that do not need to be dealt with by A&E.
Community hospitals were closed down and bulldozed and most are now housing estates. So when someone doesn't need to be in hospital but can't go home they have to stay as there is nowhere else to go. So bed blocking happens. Care in the community was touted as the way forward, based on cheap labour coming in from east European workers. Nobody saw the change in the pound caused by brexit that made working here for immigrants not worth the hassle. The population explosion hasn't helped. The NHS is crippled at times by litigation fueled by no win no fee lawyers.

It's time it stripped back some of its services like endless IVF for couples that already have a child or gender reassignment surgery and controversial as it sounds employment law needs to be overhauled to enable the NHS to get rid of serially poor performing staff.

OP I'm so sorry you had to witness this.

It truly is a disgrace at how underfunded the NHS has been, it needs to get back to a service we are proud of and be adequately funded.

My blood runs cold at the thought of having a system like the states, leaving people on the street if they don't have insurance or cash to pay for treatments.

Everyone deserves healthcare not just the rich.

It was never designed to accommodate this sheer number of patients. And it is so inefficiently run as to be terrifying laughable. Of the 4 student doctors we knew at university, 3 of them left for Australia the moment they qualified and have been out there ever since. Five years and hundreds of thousands of pounds to train them, and they were just able to bugger off

Over 3 years since my Mum passed away and I am still dealing with NHS paperwork regarding a distressing incident when she was in hospital. Letters incorrectly addressed (I once received a complete stranger's blood test results). Unnecessary letters often duplicated or even triplicated. Letters lost. Very poor levels of literacy in emails and letters. The constant underlying unease that, clearly, the right hand didn't have a clue what the left hand was doing.

We won’t have a system like the states. We have very different attitudes to healthcare and social care within our society.

Unfortunately that fear is used against us

@chocolateorangeinhaler

The NHs is in crisis in parts due to its own support networks being largely eradicated decades ago. GP contracts were changed in the 90s as a result it's impossible to see a GP, so what do people do? They present to A&E for all manner of things that do not need to be dealt with by A&E. Community hospitals were closed down and bulldozed and most are now housing estates. So when someone doesn't need to be in hospital but can't go home they have to stay as there is nowhere else to go. So bed blocking happens. Care in the community was touted as the way forward, based on cheap labour coming in from east European workers. Nobody saw the change in the pound caused by brexit that made working here for immigrants not worth the hassle. The population explosion hasn't helped. The NHS is crippled at times by litigation fueled by no win no fee lawyers.

It's time it stripped back some of its services like endless IVF for couples that already have a child or gender reassignment surgery and controversial as it sounds employment law needs to be overhauled to enable the NHS to get rid of serially poor performing staff.

That's not the only solution, though. That's more central planning, and it won't work. As population growth continues to accelerate, the idea of a single state corporation providing the service without collapsing under the weight of its own inefficiency is a fantasy.

The best solution is private provision, with small taxpayer funding for very limited life-or-death services.

Paying for a GP visit is essential.

BTW onlychildhamster, free at the point of use healthcare is magical thinking. Nothing is free. It's simply means deferred payment. Becoming incredibly expensive a the point at which it has to be paid for.
As for you 'evil Tories hate and blame immigrants type comment. I'll remind you that the difference between the UK and other countries for illegal immigrants is that the NHS is usually much easier to use since entitlement to its service is not usually checked. In any other country, it would be - through the insurance systems which are ubiquitous outside the UK.

Unfortunately that fear is used against us

In what way do you mean ?

The NHS of today is not the NHS when it was created

Medical science has advanced some what in that time

It is not just about money but IMHO it needs a major review / overhaul of what can, can’t be done

Putting more money in? Howls of protest at the proposed 1.25% NI Tax rise which is due, or may be delayed to help clear the back log of cases due to CV19

Parties of various colours talk a good talk but when it comes down to it, won’t grasp the nettle to bring the NHS into the 21st Century

If people had to pay for a doctors appointment, there would be howls of protest but it might put off minor issues and make people go to the Pharmacy

No easy solution but the waste within the NHS is staggering 😳

@tfresh

I don't think the NHS was ever designed to be used the way it is today. People go for everything, and people now live for a lot longer.

The concept of I've worked all my life so should get unlimited free care is certainly nice, but doesn't work financially.

Nor does paying continually for people who are making themselves sick - overweight, smokers, alcoholics, etc.

A serious discussion needs to happen about it, and it never will because it is political poison to do so.

I agree with this. Too many people thinking they should get free healthcare without putting enough into the pot themselves, or taking any responsibility for their own health.

You make people pay to see a GP and they'll hold off until they can't wait any longer and are sicker as a result and then they turn up at A&E.
Restricting GP access during covid was a great success

We have to ask why are Doctors going off to Australia - it can't just be the weather - must be economic benefits too. The same as any well trained individuals.

@aristotlesdeathray

YANBU

I'm at the point where I'd welcome a fully funded model like in the US

Having had hospital treatment in both the U.K. and US it's far superior In every way possible

The NHS we all knew and loved is dead, time we move on

What a ridiculous suggestion!! It is not “fully funded”!!

Wealthier people are stuck in bad jobs they can’t afford to leave because they would loose health benefits

The middle class is also stuck in bad job so
As not to loose healthcare benefits but their plan is less comprehensive so they still pay $k’s just to see their GP (e.g. a birth costs $20k - with insurance plan)

The answer is to better find the NHS!

I say this as someone who has opted to go private over NHS recently and I am now many £k’s poorer for it. Not a chance I could have afforded this with young children!!

@Thinkbiglittleone

OP I'm so sorry you had to witness this.

It truly is a disgrace at how underfunded the NHS has been, it needs to get back to a service we are proud of and be adequately funded.

My blood runs cold at the thought of having a system like the states, leaving people on the street if they don't have insurance or cash to pay for treatments.

Everyone deserves healthcare not just the rich.

FFS. Drop America ok. please! Forget the Michael Moore film. Nobody is advocating that an American style-system would be good for this country, ok, nobody.

I and others may have made the point that it would be preferable to us, as we're net contributors. But for the whole population, no.

What I want, and what I believe most sensible people want, is a Swiss style, insurance-based health care system that actually delivers. The redistributive welfare ideal that underpins the NHScan't work since there are more net beneficiaries than contributors. Trying to get more out then is put in, and like a perpetual motion engine, it must grind to a halt eventually.

We're seeing the effect today in "our" NHS, which claims to provide "universal" service, and does so terribly because there are too many takers for resources available.

The only way forward is privatisation.

Putting more money in? Howls of protest at the proposed 1.25% NI Tax rise which is due, or may be delayed to help clear the back log of cases due to CV19

People are up in arms because it's regressive so the poorest pay more plus it's not been paid by older people (unless they work).

We have to ask why are Doctors going off to Australia - it can't just be the weather - must be economic benefits too. The same as any well trained individuals.

I think unfortunately we will see this more & more. A brain drain from the UK for better quality of life.

The only way forward is privatisation

Fuck that.

The partial privatisation of certain services, combined with strategic throttling of funds to the NHS, has caused this mess.

Contractors providing the bare minimum of service, whilst rinsing the public purse for everything they can get is how we got here.

Yes, LEAN Six Sigma techniques, streamlining and greater efficiency will benefit large swathes of the NHS and simply throwing money at the problem, like Labour did won't help, but using sick people to turn a profit is just a hideous idea.

@Imnotafemistbut literally the second poster on this thread said they wanted it 🤷‍♀️

@Lockdownbear

You make people pay to see a GP and they'll hold off until they can't wait any longer and are sicker as a result and then they turn up at A&E. Restricting GP access during covid was a great success

We have to ask why are Doctors going off to Australia - it can't just be the weather - must be economic benefits too. The same as any well trained individuals.

Does that happen in France, Germany, Canada, Italy? No, they go to the GP when they need to and they treat their pharmacists more like GP's and the services in those nations are far better for it.

BTW for all those spreading superstitious belief that the faults of the absurd health care system we're stuck with is all the fault of the Tories. I'll remind you that Labour has done more to introduce private contractors into the NHS than any Tory government but that's fine with me ...

From 2015: www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/labour-cant-escape-its-blairite-past-nhs-so-it-should-stop-crying-privatisation

@fillitup

Putting more money in? Howls of protest at the proposed 1.25% NI Tax rise which is due, or may be delayed to help clear the back log of cases due to CV19

People are up in arms because it's regressive so the poorest pay more plus it's not been paid by older people (unless they work).

Exactly.

NI is not used to fund the NHS - payment of it does give access to certain benefits though (not nhs related).

There were other ways that they could amend the tax system to fund the NHS and social care system.

The Tories could be more radical and overhaul the tax system such that it is much more fairer.

But they’d never do that because, while they could still remain rich, they don’t like the idea of being not as rich.

BTW for all those spreading superstitious belief that the faults of the absurd health care system we're stuck with is all the fault of the Tories. I'll remind you that Labour has done more to introduce private contractors into the NHS than any Tory government but that's fine with me

The best evidence you have is a 2015 article written by Tory apologists?

I quit being a doctor in August.

I became a doctor because (cliché alert) I like science and I like making a difference to people. It sounds selfish, because it is in a way, but I couldn’t take giving substandard care anymore. I was giving so much of myself to do my best for my patients, and it wasn’t enough. Rather than thanking me for my efforts, they’d put in complaints about waiting times / being stuck in ED / delayed discharged. I am absolutely not blaming patients for that - they were rightly complaining about our substandard care. But my god it made the job soul destroying.

A consultant colleague recently went from full time to 1 day a week as her salary barely covered the necessary practically round-the-clock childcare required for unpredictable shift patterns. Only since reducing her hours and thinking about her job did she realise that the day she was expected to work a 13 hours shift while actively miscarrying was not a normal or healthy work environment.

It makes me sad as there were many aspects of the job I loved, but it was the right decision for me.

The point of that massive rant being that I suspect many healthcare workers are feeling similarly, and without drastic change I can’t see the NHS going on much longer.

What I don’t understand, and blows my mind, is that the NHS is the 7th largest employer in the world. For such a tiny island, albeit heavily populated, that is staggering. No other health service is in the Top 10.

Yet, many people are complaining the NHS is not fit for purpose.

Imno paying for a GP visit is essential? Really? Everyone?
Children, those on benefits, the over 65's (those that far far use it most)? All those groups?
Or would there be the usual sweeping exemptions not always even based on ability to pay leaving the same poor sods in the middle subsidising everyone else!

@Thinkbiglittleone

OP I'm so sorry you had to witness this.

It truly is a disgrace at how underfunded the NHS has been, it needs to get back to a service we are proud of and be adequately funded.

My blood runs cold at the thought of having a system like the states, leaving people on the street if they don't have insurance or cash to pay for treatments.

Everyone deserves healthcare not just the rich.

How flipping patronising and political point-scoring can you get? The OP is old enough to be bearing a child, presumably much wanted, thoughtfully planned and prepared for. I expect the OP has reviewed what she eats and drinks in preparation for having a healthy baby after a normal delivery. If I were the great reforming NHS czar, childbirth and midwifery would be high on my priorities; ultra-prem or radically unwell deliveries rather lower.

@MintJulia

So sorry to hear about your relative

To be fair to the NHS, I had a lump removed in October and the oncology service locally couldn't have been better. I started chemo before Xmas, have had follow up appointments, tests, phone calls with pastoral care, even a courtesy call from my gp. They've helped me financially, and in lots of other ways. They have been fabulous.

So no I don't think the NHS is screwed. I don't know why services vary so much. I think that is the question that needs asking.

I agree....I think oncology services and The cancer hospitals where I am in NW are amazing....even through Covid....especially breast cancer care services...Absolutely fantastic treatment and care