13 year old boy pushed into a river and drowned. No prosecution. AIBU to think this was not a ‘prank’,

[RopeyRuby]

Just seen this and remember the story.

The culprit knew he couldn’t swim and was old enough to understand the consequences IMO. One of the reasons for not prosecuting was it harming his ‘life chances’! What about poor Christopher who lost his? No trial so no closure for his mother.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-60104439.amp

AIBU to think this is not right or just?

Horrific to think of the fear Christopher went through.

Also @SlidingInto2022sDMs

Mumsnet is very much monitored. What attacks you see directed at the boy other than he shouldn't have been in the way? Examples?

It wasn't bullying though, it was a group of friends messing about swimming at a river. I think because of the prevalence of swimming lessons we don't actually know what "can't swim" means. I know lots of people who say they can't swim but who absolutely can swim. Just not fast or smoothly or that they enjoy it. I don't know anybody that doesn't know how to swim (as far as I know) it wouldn't occur to me at all that someone wouldn't be able to swim.

Getyourjinglebellsinarow
I don't know anybody that doesn't know how to swim (as far as I know) it wouldn't occur to me at all that someone wouldn't be able to swim.

Eh?
Do you know anyone who’s from Finland?
Do you also assume that Finland doesn’t exist?

Besides he knew Christopher can’t swim. He pushed him regardless

Bullying of black children is an actual problem but I'm questioning your motives now that you've implied that's not a valid concern.

You're not making sense. Do you think you can come here and flip the script?

You're the one who wrote 'not everything is racism' in your post. Or does that only have to do with someone else's child? What's your motive there?

You should read that post slowly and notice what my point was instead of harping on about nothing. Again what his family did has nothing to do with what posters did. You're bringing other things up.

It's about how posters handle issues when it comes to different races. If you say there was nothing wrong with posters calling the boy, his parents and family stupid, dimwit, fuckwits and worse; saying that at his age (8 years old) he should've known better, his mum is a terrible parent for not telling him how to act. Yet here this 14 year old who pushed someone into the river knowing he wasn't good at swimming is a child and isn't mature enough to know better, it's only pranks, boys will be boys, teens will be teens. If you see nothing wrong with this, then you're part of the problem all while talking about "bullying of Black children". 🙄

Do you think his family would've been happy to read those things? Do you think they were laughing at the thread? What is your motive besides being an apologist, to say the least?

I'm pretty local to the area and actually drove past when the emergency services were parked up trying to help Christopher I didn't realise that's why they were there until I got home

I completely agree with Christopher's mother. Christopher deserves a fair investigation that isn't prejudiced against him because he happened to be black. Because of institutional racism she has been denied, repeatedly.

There's lots of hand wringing about how it can adversely affect the rest of the perpetrator's life to have to face being charged with a crime and face the justice system but very little concern for the impact it has on Christopher's family for his tragic death to be labelled as nothing more serious than a 'prank'.

At 14 years old that boy had no business shoving anyone into a river, even someone they knew could swim let alone someone who was either incredibly weak at swimming or unable to at all (accounts vary on this). He was old enough to know what he was doing was dangerous and did it anyway. Anything could have happened including landing dangerously on rocks. That he hasn't had to face consequences for this beyond guilt assuming he feels any is appalling.

Being a teenager is not an excuse for causing death without any consequence.

It we had a system that treated everyone fairly and equally then I think we could have faith in saying the right decision has been made

But we don’t have that

And a black boy of 14 pushing a white boy the same age he knew wasn’t a good swimmer into a river, who then drowned would we really be looking at the same outcome, especially of the drowned boy was let’s say from a respectable mc family

No doubt many will claim the result would be the same

Being a teenager is not an excuse for causing death without any consequence.

Of course not. But the age of the perpetrator rightly does weigh in to the decision to prosecute, and that goes for literally every crime. A child's ability to reason, judge and make decisions (particularly those with long-term consequences) is not fully developed.

I actually don't like how much consideration is generally given to the feelings of offenders, nor how often the "but what about his future" excuse is used as a justification for failing to prosecute or for giving a lenient sentence. But that was one aspect (of 5) that were identified as reasons against prosecution.

I completely agree with Christopher's mother. Christopher deserves a fair investigation that isn't prejudiced against him because he happened to be black. Because of institutional racism she has been denied, repeatedly

Who are you actually accusing of being institutionally racist @HopefulProcrastinator ?

Such a tragic case.

Based on the info in this and other news reports though, it was the right decision imo.

13 and 14 year olds are thoughtless and impulsive and often stupid - even the intelligent, supposedly mature ones.

I have an intelligent, mature 14 year old that's treated as an almost-adult in many ways...and then every so often he does something that really slams it home that 14 year olds are still children.

They just don't always consider the possible repercussions of their actions in the same way that most adults do...hence why there are so many stories people tell about the stupid, dangerous things they did at that age that, as adults, make them shudder at the thought of what may have happened.

@SlidingInto2022sDMs

Bullying of black children is an actual problem but I'm questioning your motives now that you've implied that's not a valid concern.

You're not making sense. Do you think you can come here and flip the script?

You're the one who wrote 'not everything is racism' in your post. Or does that only have to do with someone else's child? What's your motive there?

You should read that post slowly and notice what my point was instead of harping on about nothing. Again what his family did has nothing to do with what posters did. You're bringing other things up.

It's about how posters handle issues when it comes to different races. If you say there was nothing wrong with posters calling the boy, his parents and family stupid, dimwit, fuckwits and worse; saying that at his age (8 years old) he should've known better, his mum is a terrible parent for not telling him how to act. Yet here this 14 year old who pushed someone into the river knowing he wasn't good at swimming is a child and isn't mature enough to know better, it's only pranks, boys will be boys, teens will be teens. If you see nothing wrong with this, then you're part of the problem all while talking about "bullying of Black children". 🙄

Do you think his family would've been happy to read those things? Do you think they were laughing at the thread? What is your motive besides being an apologist, to say the least?

Oh lord not everything is racism because you brought up that anecdote. You said it's not about his race, and you deny he was trampled so what is the relevance to this boy being deliberately pushed in a river?! Ridiculous, and you make REAL issues (like non white people being bullied) look trivial by comparing it to a situation where his FAMILY didn't even say there was anything untoward.

Black people not largely knowing how to swim is not racism - that was my first post. I explained I have lived experience, it's not racist to point it out that, and it is largely true. That's why I said 'not everything is racism'

Got all that? Not difficult to understand.

And a black boy of 14 pushing a white boy the same age he knew wasn’t a good swimmer into a river, who then drowned would we really be looking at the same outcome, especially of the drowned boy was let’s say from a respectable mc family

We should be.

If not, the answer is to address the unfair approach towards some so that they're treated fairly. Not make the unfair approach standard across the board.

To clarify for you @SlidingInto2022sDMs since you want to split hairs:

Some things are not racist - like children being in the way, or (a biracial woman) stating that black people largely, are not learning to swim.

Other things are racist, like black children being bullied and even killed.

@OneTC

What do people think would be an appropriate punishment of you accept that there wasn't intent?

It very much depends on the child imo. If my DS had done this as a moment of immature horseplay, I'm not sure what punishment would affect him harder than the guilt. It would be a massive struggle for him to live with it. I don't think he'd ever forgive himself. If that is the case for the boy in question who reportedly jumped in to try and save him, I don't see what benefit a prosecution would have.

Oh lord not everything is racism because you brought up that anecdote.

Do keep up with your posts.
Your "not everything is racism" post wasn't directed at me. So no it isn't because of my post about the boy and the guard. Those are two separate posts.

If you don't understand comparisons about different aspects of an issue, that's on you. The rest of the first paragraph requires a lot of mental effort to work out your point because you seem to be confusing different issues. (Haven't said that about anybody else on this thread, so it's just you), so I'm bowing out of our "conversation".

I knew the point you were making about racism but you also mentioned you were worried about your "black child" facing issues due to her race. So I turned what you said on you. Surely whenever she faces any issues, bear in mind that "not everything is about racism" and decide accordingly. Not difficult to understand.

REAL issues
You mean overt = real and covert or microaggressions = not real.

Stop being offended on others behalf
Yes, next you'll be writing about "woke" and "virtue-signalling".🙄

Anyway, you don't understand some of my posts and I can't make heads or tails of yours. Fair enough. We'll call it even.

Some things are not racist - like children being in the way, or (a biracial woman) stating that black people largely, are not learning to swim.

And who said the racist part was people saying he was in the way? Talking about splitting hairs. Even after I've written many times what the point is. You've just been arguing over nothing.

Other things are racist, like black children being bullied and even killed.

I knew it. Racism to you is only when the action is overt and clear as day. Cool.

It reminded me another death 2 years ago.
Also “prank gone wrong”
Victim also from BAME background; death from anaphylaxis.
Perpetrator also not punished

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/10/karanbir-singh-cheema-death-boy-threw-cheese-did-not-intend-harm-coroner

@LegoNinjago

Pazuzu

It's a kids being fucking stupid thing.
Look at the circumstances, not the colours.

Is it really “kids being stupid” though?
Let’s look at the circumstances AND the colours.

White boy knows that black boy can’t swim.
White kid decides to push black boy into the river nonetheless.

So is it? Is it really, you think?

As pp said he was mean and his actions took a life

He got off lightly because he’s white and because he has threatened suicide.

No. Boy knows that other boy isn't a great swimmer. Other boy is (by own admissions) ready to go in but he's hesitating. Boy decides to give him a push.

ALL kids do this around water. ALL.

You have a responsibility as a parent to ensure your child can swim. IF they can't swim (or they're not great) and they're FOURTEEN not FOUR, THEY also have a responsibility NOT TO GO SWIMMING or NEAR WATER in the bloody first place.

This has got fuck all to do with race and colour.

He did not 'get off lightly' because he was white. Jesus.

Tragic case all round. I would imagine the boy who pushed him in now has a life sentence of his own. What exactly would you hope to be achieved by jailing him?

Also you asked for examples of personal attacks. I gave you some and I notice you conveniently swerved that. No more mention of it or do you also believe the boy and his family are fuckwits and they'd be happy and laughing if they read the thread about them?

I don't believe this is racist. I don't belive the white boy not being prosecuted is racist. If you have 14yr old boys of your own you would know that they don't think things through and they are still children.

I think we need more water safety warnings (personally I think it would be lovely if we could have a Christopher's law around children being taught this).

And our UK culture is at blame. What boys think of as funny - when they see older men playing horrible pranks can go so horribly wrong, they idealise this type of humour. I could well imagine my ds pushing a mate in thinking he was funny. He wouldn't have thought through the consequences or one of his mates pushing him in for a laugh. It's not funny to us but it is funny to a vast majority of teenage boys.

Sadly we have teen deaths in rivers every year. They're not safe. I remember stories of an older boy in my school dying after jumping off a bridge that a lot of the boys used to jump off into the water when I was young. That bridge is still used in summer by groups of 16 to 25yr olds. River safety needs an overhaul. Personally I think it should go the same way as drug reduction advice goes - yes we know it's fun, no you shouldn't do it but if you do do it this is the safest way.

Perpetrator also not punished

Do you honestly think people (especially children) should be held criminally responsible for something they could not reasonably have foreseen?

Also if its wrong because hypothetically if the boys races were reversed.. then it's still wrong. Campaign for better equality within our police force, taking away from others doesn't gain you rights.

And I do believe the police are racist. It's in various reports, but this isn't racist. This is a young teenager not being prosecuted because it's not in the publics interest. Why should he be prosecuted on the hypothetical reversal of race role?

@FacebookPhotos

Perpetrator also not punished

Do you honestly think people (especially children) should be held criminally responsible for something they could not reasonably have foreseen?

Errrm.. I think the fact that 10yo is the age of criminal responsibility in the U.K. is self-explanatory, no?

But @LegoNinjago 10 is not an accurate age in terms of brain development for criminal responsibility. We've got one of the lowest ages in the world.

I can imagine how this happened. He wouldn’t go in the river because he couldn’t swim and he’d told the other boys as much. They found it funny to push him in thinking he’d be fine, he obviously wasn’t and lost his life as a result. I don’t think this is a case of ‘a prank gone wrong’, it’s manslaughter. If my friend told me he couldn’t swim and I deliberately pushed him into a river, I’d expect to be prosecuted for manslaughter. A 14 year old knows right from wrong, he knew this was wrong.

@SnowWhitesSM

But *@LegoNinjago* 10 is not an accurate age in terms of brain development for criminal responsibility. We've got one of the lowest ages in the world.

I somewhat agree, but we are discussing this particular case and in this particular case the child is 14yo.