AIBU to think drink driving and speeding are morally equivalent

[Highdaysandholidaze]

One gets treated as unforgivable, the other as a peccadillo. The sort of thing we all do, so it can’t be that bad.

But drink driving isn’t bad in and of itself. If someone wants to down a bottle of gin and drive round a deserted island then good luck to them. Drink driving is bad because it increases the risk of hurting or killing other people.

Speeding’s the same, isn’t it? It increases your odds of hurting or killing someone.

Does it make it worse if you kill someone with your car because you’re half cut rather than if you’re over the limit?

One defence people seem to have is that their speeding wasn’t dangerous. They’ll say that the speed limit was silly in that area, or that there wasn’t anyone else on the road.

But people used to say the same sort of stuff about drink driving. And tbh Lewis Hamilton will have better reflexes after four beers than I do sober.

So, AIBU?

@Agrudge speed limits aren't 'arbitrary', no one plucks them out of the air and applies them at random. It's really clear how stopping distances are affected by speed and how the impact of a collision is intensified by speed. That's where the limits come from.

If the rules are different on the Isle of Man, perhaps that's because the conditions are different - types of road, amount of traffic etc. It doesn't mean that their rules can just be applied here.

Speeding laws are really not equivalent to a North Korean dictatorship.

People make the same excuses for drink driving as for speeding - it's the arrogant belief that they are a superior driver/know the road/trust their own judgement and so on and so on. It doesn't make it safe.

@MojoMoon

Escooters for hire in London are fitted with speed limitiers and geo fenced so the speed limit is low on some routes (shared paths) than others.

I don't understand why cars are not required to be fitted with the same speed limiting tech.

Lorries are often fitted with speed limitiers and some delivery vans are - along with black boxes recording the speed travelled and braking patterns to identify terrible drivers.

We should stop treating driving as a right and be much stricter on limiting who can do it and demand high standards.
It's the greatest threat of harm to our children (death and serious injuries)

The problem with this would be that it's expensive and hard to retro-fit to existing vehicles. We can't effectively enforce the requirements for people to have a licence to drive, tax and MOT so this would be even harder, and the bellends who drive like bellends now would carry on.

To me the difference is if someone goes out to a put necks 8 pints and gets in a car and drives it, they've premeditated it, they're a danger from the minute they get in the car until they get out it. It doesn't change if there on a highly built up street or outside a school.

Someone speeding may have thought, ohvits quiet here, I'll speed up. As soon as they drop their speed they're back at low risk.

I'm not excusing either.

Just out of interest when were the stopping distances last updated?

You have clearly never been to the isle of man. The road surfaces arent great, the standard of driving is definitely below the average over here and it can get busy over the mountain road. But I could do 150mph across it legally

@MojoMoon

Escooters for hire in London are fitted with speed limitiers and geo fenced so the speed limit is low on some routes (shared paths) than others.

I don't understand why cars are not required to be fitted with the same speed limiting tech.

Lorries are often fitted with speed limitiers and some delivery vans are - along with black boxes recording the speed travelled and braking patterns to identify terrible drivers.

We should stop treating driving as a right and be much stricter on limiting who can do it and demand high standards.
It's the greatest threat of harm to our children (death and serious injuries)

The problem with geofencing is it's not 100% accurate if your signal gets weak the gps could think you on a road nearby where it's a 30 limit and you could be on a motorway. Next thing your being forced to slow down to 30 putting you in a very dangerous position

Great, we have safer conditions here than the Isle of Man, I think we should keep it that way and not apply the rules from there to here.

Stopping distances will always be greater the faster you're going. Chances of the person you hit surviving will always reduce the faster you're going. So going faster will be more dangerous.

@IllManneredBitch

Great, we have safer conditions here than the Isle of Man, I think we should keep it that way and not apply the rules from there to here.

Stopping distances will always be greater the faster you're going. Chances of the person you hit surviving will always reduce the faster you're going. So going faster will be more dangerous.

The pointing was making on stpping distances is I'm pretty sure (but I could be wrong) are based on old technology. Brakes have vastly improved since highway code published them. I'm almost certain my motorbike could stop in much less distance than what's quoted on the highway code

As could both my cars and my wifes car

It's an interesting point, but I think there is a fundamental difference.

A drink driver is by definition not in control of the car. Whether or not they speed. They aren't fully capable of responding correctly and quickly to changes in circumstances, of seeing all that's going on around them, even if they are travelling at 10mph they are dangerous.

It is possible to speed and be safe. Speed limits are manmade constructs that create a rule that people can be measured against. There are a number of studies that show that some speed limits are actually set lower than they need to be, and by increasing them you would increase safer driving.

Yes of course some speeding is dangerous. And yes, if you have an accident while speeding it is likely to be more serious.

But a drink driver isn't even in a position to know what the speed limit is, or to monitor their speed. So a drink driver may also speed, but without consideration for whether they can handle the car properly, and with impaired reflexes. They are less safe than a sober speeder.

And be careful with the stats. There are more accidents due to speed than drink. But then there are many many more people who speed than drink drive. Proportionately, if you drink drive you are more likely to have an accident. And also, those stats for speeding will include drink drivers who were speeding.

By the way, I'm no apoligist for speeding. I'm a stickler for speed limits.

I'm surprised it's not been mentioned either but doing 40 on a clear, well moving motorway is far far more dangerous than doing 80.

As someone whose 17 year old son witnessed his friend being mown down and killed by a driver doing 73mph in a 40 zone, I agree. he would not plead guilty even though there was overwhelming evidence against him and made my son and his friends have to re-live the nightmare as witnesses in court. He bleated that he wasn't drunk or on his phone etc. He got four years.

Bearing in mind 82mph is a standard motorway speed limit on the continent, i'd struggle to support any argument that 80mph on the motorway in good conditions is inherently unsafe. It's obviously not the smartest at rush hour but when visibility is good and traffic light it's not a speed where your car is under any more real stress likely to be on the edge of it's control, as it is still within a speed limit it will be tested at.

Doing 30 in a 20 or 40 (or more) in a 30 built up area during trading hours where the hazards are more frequent and unpredictable (kids, dogs, people pulling out of side roads without looking, parked cars, shops, buses etc etc) is a totally different matter as if you can't react to the hazard then you have deviated from what is safe, and i'd put that in with drink driving as starting at careless and increasing up to blind stupidity.

@PurpleDaisies ‘at least the alcohol has impaired your judgement’ as in, at least there is an explanation for the idiocy (impaired ability to make the right decision) whereas speeding when you’re sober is just you being a dangerous moron on a more fundamental level. If that makes more sense?

[quote PattyPan]@PurpleDaisies ‘at least the alcohol has impaired your judgement’ as in, at least there is an explanation for the idiocy (impaired ability to make the right decision) whereas speeding when you’re sober is just you being a dangerous moron on a more fundamental level. If that makes more sense?[/quote]
If does but I totally disagree. Everyone knows they will need to get home at the end of the night. Everyone is sober before they start drinking. At some point, every drink driver has taken the decision to drink alcohol knowing they will need to get in their car later on.

That’s not always true - I’m sure there are drunk drivers who were drinking at home and then decide they want to go out and get something (like more booze, or a kebab). It doesn’t excuse it of course but drunk driving is not always premeditated.

It always alarms me how so many seemingly functional adults assume that they are better than average at driving a car. It's pretty unlikely unless you've had advanced training that actually, you're fairly run of the mill, and your speeding is actually evidence that, no, you don't understand the risks.

Over confidence. It comes up a lot when two members of my family are busy providing expert info to the police in cases of serious 'accidents'.

I'd like to do a advanced driving course.
If I'm driving faster than I should its probably best to try and improve my abilities. But also think it's hard to beat real world experience. I only passed my driving test 5/6 years ago, ive been riding motorcycles alot longer. Last time there was a decent amount of snow I went out deliberately to see how a car handles In the snow in an attempt to gain more experience so if I was caught out I heavy snow I would be able to handle it.

@Agrudge

Just out of interest when were the stopping distances last updated?

You have clearly never been to the isle of man. The road surfaces arent great, the standard of driving is definitely below the average over here and it can get busy over the mountain road. But I could do 150mph across it legally

Doesn't make it right though on the isle of man though, does it?

I don't think stopping distances should be updated to justify increasing the speed limit. They could be updated, but I think the results now will be worse than when they were last done. Look at all of the technology in the average car now, the amount of buttons on the dashboard. There's a lot more things to distract drivers nowadays, from altering settings on the car, listening to music, talking to passengers to using their phones while driving.

Plus the average intelligence of people seems to be dropping, so in all honesty, I don't trust anyone on the road anyway and constantly look for someone cocking up, which there's usually at least one every time I drive. Putting idiots like that on faster roads? Brilliant idea, for funeral directors only.

82mph is a standard motorway speed limit on the continent

in some countries, it's lower in others. On balance I think 70 is fine and should be enforced strictly.

@PattyPan

I actually think speeding is worse - at least with drink driving the alcohol has impaired your judgment.

Your judgment wasn't impaired when you decided to drink too much! Of course it's worse.

Mind you, there is no excuse for the people who overtake you when you are doing the speed limit. That is pre-meditated, they know exactly what they are doing when they decide the limit doesn't apply to them.

Well many people travel fast over there and the death rate isnt high. I got over taken by a smart car, it was very embarrassing

I'd have to agree with about the general publics I.Q dropping rapidly . And there will always be people who take the piss .

Mind you, there is no excuse for the people who overtake you when you are doing the speed limit.

Are you sure that you are actually doing the speed limit?