To point out that mandatory vaccines are completely normal for doctors and nurses and part of their registration

[NeedAHoliday2021]

Yes covid is adding a new one but in healthcare, ALL doctors must have Hep B and various other vaccines to practice. Similarly, midwives must have certain childhood vaccines to protect newborn babies they’ll come into contact with.

COVID adds a new one to the list and is a change as it encompasses non clinical staff but for clinical registered staff, mandated vaccines isn’t a new thing.

I’m pointing this out because I only learned this in the last year and don’t think many non clinical people are aware.

So what? They knew about hep b etc. before they started. This is different. I’d rather have unvaccinated staff, who have probably already had covid anyway, than no staff. This seems to be a particular issue in midwifery but never mind they’re over staffed anyway….

Yes you’re right, this is totally different. This is a global pandemic and we have a medicine that can significantly help. The wonderful world of medical advances.

I’m fully vaccinated and very glad we have them but do not support this

Not least because we need the HCP - which is why RCM and RCN have expressed concern

@MarshaBradyo

I’m fully vaccinated and very glad we have them but do not support this

Not least because we need the HCP - which is why RCM and RCN have expressed concern

RCM and RCN are both telling their members to get vaccinated.

Their concern is solely about timing and potential staffing shortages. Not an objection to the concept.

RCM used words ‘catastrophic impact’

If they think pausing will avoid that then do that

@NeedAHoliday2021

Yes you’re right, this is totally different. This is a global pandemic and we have a medicine that can significantly help. The wonderful world of medical advances.

Ok you’ve linked to guidelines there. Guidelines are not mandatory. Possibly controversial but doctors aren’t all knowing, you’d be better off asking a medical lawyer. The fact that new legislation needs to be passed to make these mandatory surely makes it clear that it’s a change to the status quo.

@RoseAndRose absolutely. Unions are supportive - I was surprised but they’ve had sensible discussions and in the context of a pandemic they’re supportive of the concept but concerned re timing and impact.

[quote HelloFrostyMorning]@NeedAHoliday2021 YANBU. I don't get it either. SO many HCPs are refusing to have the covid vaccine, mainly because 'it's too new and we don't know the long term effects' and so on. But I am willing to bet that in covid, and its symptoms/effects/after effects are much worse than any effects of the vaccine. The vast majority of serious covid-related hospital cases and deaths are people who were not vaccinated.

There are a LOT of HCPs refusing it though, moreso than any other profession. I find it really odd and a bit worrying. These people are meant to be intelligent people and they are meant to care for ill and vulnerable people, and yet they lack the intellect to have the covid vaccine. Bit worrying that these people are responsible for the lives of other humans. [/quote]
ONS have released figures today

The occupations with the highest take up of jabs are health professionals, followed by teaching and educational professionals

The lowest take up was elementary trades and related occupations, and second lowest skilled construction and building trades

@BungleandGeorge This guidance is taken on and applied by all NHS organisations and, as a poster previously pointed out, it comes under terms of employment so no dr would be able to practice as no one would employ them. It’s not law but is standard practice.

[quote NeedAHoliday2021]@BungleandGeorge This guidance is taken on and applied by all NHS organisations and, as a poster previously pointed out, it comes under terms of employment so no dr would be able to practice as no one would employ them. It’s not law but is standard practice.[/quote]
You’re arguing but you are incorrect. All health screening is subject to risk assessment for a start and guidelines are not mandatory…

There is a difference between supporting vaccination and supporting mandatory vaccination. This statement from the royal college of GPs outlines the objections quite well. www.rcgp.org.uk/about-us/news/2021/october/response-mandatory-vaccination.aspx

[quote NeedAHoliday2021]@RoseAndRose absolutely. Unions are supportive - I was surprised but they’ve had sensible discussions and in the context of a pandemic they’re supportive of the concept but concerned re timing and impact.[/quote]
Can you reference that? Below one of the largest healthcare unions, unison OPPOSE mandatory vaccination www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2021/12/COVID-19-vaccination-status-requirements-in-the-workplace-v5.pdf

Do you have any union statements supporting it?

It’s not law - I agree with you. Hep b is guidance but all nhs employers follow that so doctors do have to be vaccinated to be employed in the nhs. This is factually true. Legally mandating a vaccine is different… but there’s a global pandemic different is to be expected.

This has absolutely no place now Omicron is the dominant variant. Are people even looking at cases / hospitalisations / deaths per 1000 / 100k in both categories? There was a recent study out of California showing Omi has flipped things on its head and the data in Scotland is painting a picture.

IMHO, all off this is about distraction. Wether it's people turning on each other over masks or over vaccines, we're all debating and questioning those issues instead of asking why the fuck banks are reporting highest profits on record and the stock market is up after two years of economic annihilation, all while cost of living is set to go through the roof.

No doubt I'll be told to get my tinfoil hat out, I'm beyond caring. None of this makes an ounce of sense!

@NeedAHoliday2021

It’s not law - I agree with you. Hep b is guidance but all nhs employers follow that so doctors do have to be vaccinated to be employed in the nhs. This is factually true. Legally mandating a vaccine is different… but there’s a global pandemic different is to be expected.

you’ve made a number of statements now which aren’t actually true?

As you’ll see from the figures above the vast majority of NHS staff have been vaccinated, more than other groups. In case you’re at all interested the opposition to this is nothing to do with not supporting the vaccination it’s about the removal of free consent and bodily autonomy which is absolutely core to the practice of medicine. In addition it does not achieve the goal (as already evidenced in care homes) in that it doesn’t increase vaccine uptake but it does reduce staff numbers in areas which already have staffing problems which leads to poorer care for patients. HTH

@theusuall

This has absolutely no place now Omicron is the dominant variant. Are people even looking at cases / hospitalisations / deaths per 1000 / 100k in both categories? There was a recent study out of California showing Omi has flipped things on its head and the data in Scotland is painting a picture.

IMHO, all off this is about distraction. Wether it's people turning on each other over masks or over vaccines, we're all debating and questioning those issues instead of asking why the fuck banks are reporting highest profits on record and the stock market is up after two years of economic annihilation, all while cost of living is set to go through the roof.

No doubt I'll be told to get my tinfoil hat out, I'm beyond caring. None of this makes an ounce of sense!

Agree with you. And it’s yet another power grab

God how many times can you say global pandemic!

@theusuall

This has absolutely no place now Omicron is the dominant variant. Are people even looking at cases / hospitalisations / deaths per 1000 / 100k in both categories? There was a recent study out of California showing Omi has flipped things on its head and the data in Scotland is painting a picture.

IMHO, all off this is about distraction. Wether it's people turning on each other over masks or over vaccines, we're all debating and questioning those issues instead of asking why the fuck banks are reporting highest profits on record and the stock market is up after two years of economic annihilation, all while cost of living is set to go through the roof.

No doubt I'll be told to get my tinfoil hat out, I'm beyond caring. None of this makes an ounce of sense!

I agree with this. Quite a few corporations and individuals have made massive profits while we’re all struggling, small businesses are suffering and we’re all angry or depressed.

@theusuall

This has absolutely no place now Omicron is the dominant variant. Are people even looking at cases / hospitalisations / deaths per 1000 / 100k in both categories? There was a recent study out of California showing Omi has flipped things on its head and the data in Scotland is painting a picture.

IMHO, all off this is about distraction. Wether it's people turning on each other over masks or over vaccines, we're all debating and questioning those issues instead of asking why the fuck banks are reporting highest profits on record and the stock market is up after two years of economic annihilation, all while cost of living is set to go through the roof.

No doubt I'll be told to get my tinfoil hat out, I'm beyond caring. None of this makes an ounce of sense!

I think they made a mistake and didn’t recognise the situation is so changeable that where we’ll be when it comes in is very different to where we were

@NeedAHoliday2021

Yes covid is adding a new one but in healthcare, ALL doctors must have Hep B and various other vaccines to practice. Similarly, midwives must have certain childhood vaccines to protect newborn babies they’ll come into contact with.

COVID adds a new one to the list and is a change as it encompasses non clinical staff but for clinical registered staff, mandated vaccines isn’t a new thing.

I’m pointing this out because I only learned this in the last year and don’t think many non clinical people are aware.

Why is my nurse friend so adamant about not getting the Covid vaccine then?

@Sosigsandwich

Those other vaccines have been around for years and the long term effects are known. The fact that 90k medical professionals are refusing it speaks volumes about how they feel about it. I think forcing someone to have a medical procedure against their will is horrific.

Tell me you have 0 understanding about how vaccines work, without telling me you have 0 understanding about how vaccines work

I'd have thought after over a year you'd have known how silly this comment is, alas, the ignorant stay ignorant

I also don't understand the fuss. Lots of other jobs also have vaccine requirements. My job in forensics needed Hep A and B - no questions or debate - just told on day 1 that this was happening.

I had the flu jab in November and the nurse that administered it said she wasn't going to have the Covid vaccines.

@Toddlerteaplease

This is why I don't understand why healthcare professionals are making a fuss about not wanting it. We had absolutely no choice what so ever about he. B or any of the others and no one batted an eyelid.

Yes my DD did during her degree course to be able to go on placement etc BUT the difference is - these are vaccines with the long term data and she knew before starting the course.

Regardless, is a patient (most probably vaccinated) harmed more by being treated by an un vaccinated HCP or by none at all?

Bare in mind too, Boosters last about 3 months and 2 x AZ are ineffective against Omicron, neither prevents transmission.

....and Javid says its now like the 'flu and we don't force vaccines on HCP's for that...

At some point, those vaccines must have been made compulsory for people already in post, and must have been fairly "new" too. I wonder what happened then, if someone refused? (I suspect, seeing the devastating impact of polio, measles etc probably was a great motivator for when those vaccines came out- these day we're not used to children dying of preventable disease)

Healthcare changes and advances, so the preventative measures Health Staff take will change accordingly too.