To point out that mandatory vaccines are completely normal for doctors and nurses and part of their registration

[NeedAHoliday2021]

Yes covid is adding a new one but in healthcare, ALL doctors must have Hep B and various other vaccines to practice. Similarly, midwives must have certain childhood vaccines to protect newborn babies they’ll come into contact with.

COVID adds a new one to the list and is a change as it encompasses non clinical staff but for clinical registered staff, mandated vaccines isn’t a new thing.

I’m pointing this out because I only learned this in the last year and don’t think many non clinical people are aware.

@NeedAHoliday2021

Yes covid is adding a new one but in healthcare, ALL doctors must have Hep B and various other vaccines to practice. Similarly, midwives must have certain childhood vaccines to protect newborn babies they’ll come into contact with.

COVID adds a new one to the list and is a change as it encompasses non clinical staff but for clinical registered staff, mandated vaccines isn’t a new thing.

I’m pointing this out because I only learned this in the last year and don’t think many non clinical people are aware.

Do you believe everything people tell you?

Perhaps you could provide the legislation or reference to show which other vaccines are mandatory?

@ShinyHappyPoster

Quite a generalisation there *@googlemum* It's odd someone with such 'detailed' knowledge of the NHS has no understanding of any medical conditions that may impact vaccine refusal. It's almost as though you're coming from a place of 'poor understanding ' whilst thinking you're smarter than your peers. 🤔

If someone is medically exempt, they can continue in NHS employment.

If the NHS can't establish what's a valid medical exemption, then we're all in deep trouble!!!!!

I agree. Get you with your lack of frothing.

It's also far less exciting than newspaper headlines might suggest. Around 5% are not vaccinated, meaning 95% are.

Take up is also believed to be higher amongst clinicians (unsurprisingly). The 90k (or 73k depending on your source) unvaccinated are not all Drs.

There is however a shortage of nearly all healthcare professionals, which is more of an issue.

I think the difference here is that it’s making it so those who already work there will not be able to carry on. That’s very different to having it as a pre contract term of employment.

Personally I think everyone in the NHS should have it but that doesn’t mean I am comfy with the way it’s being done.

Perhaps you could provide the legislation or reference to show which other vaccines are mandatory?

It's not legislation, it's conditions of employment

I haven't found the overarching policy - there must be one somewhere - but if you google, you'll get page after page of individual trusts screening and immunisation requirements

"Can't believe the fuss" - why is flu jab uptake so patchy each year, if the jabs have always been mandatory? What else will you not "believe " when there are reports of even worse health care professional shortages next year?

Also, since when were any social care staff in UK previously required to get specific jabs?

@NeedAHoliday2021 YANBU. I don't get it either. SO many HCPs are refusing to have the covid vaccine, mainly because 'it's too new and we don't know the long term effects' and so on. But I am willing to bet that in covid, and its symptoms/effects/after effects are much worse than any effects of the vaccine. The vast majority of serious covid-related hospital cases and deaths are people who were not vaccinated.

There are a LOT of HCPs refusing it though, moreso than any other profession. I find it really odd and a bit worrying. These people are meant to be intelligent people and they are meant to care for ill and vulnerable people, and yet they lack the intellect to have the covid vaccine. Bit worrying that these people are responsible for the lives of other humans.

Show me the long term data from hep b vaccine...

Lack of deaths from Hep B ?

Why do you feel the need to point it out? Surely the nurses and doctors, including those who are refusing the covid vaccine, are aware?

[quote HelloFrostyMorning]@NeedAHoliday2021 YANBU. I don't get it either. SO many HCPs are refusing to have the covid vaccine, mainly because 'it's too new and we don't know the long term effects' and so on. But I am willing to bet that in covid, and its symptoms/effects/after effects are much worse than any effects of the vaccine. The vast majority of serious covid-related hospital cases and deaths are people who were not vaccinated.

There are a LOT of HCPs refusing it though, moreso than any other profession. I find it really odd and a bit worrying. These people are meant to be intelligent people and they are meant to care for ill and vulnerable people, and yet they lack the intellect to have the covid vaccine. Bit worrying that these people are responsible for the lives of other humans. [/quote]
I find it fascinating that when HCPs (no matter their role - dentists, physiotherapists, etc) advocate for the vaccine, the reaction is “listen to them, they’re a HCP”. What about when they’re not for the vaccine?

It doesn’t really make sense to force unvaccinated staff to take the vaccine now. Omicron has changed the pandemic. The vaccines against delta and alpha seem a bit pointless now unless you’re going to travel somewhere where it’s still circulating.
And if youve had omicron already then it seems unnecessary.

There are a LOT of HCPs refusing it though, moreso than any other profession.

What makes you think that? I don’t think that’s true at all from data I’ve seen (I can’t share as it’s not public data). Those not vaccinated in my hospital are usually band 4 or below staff.

The other vaccines are mandated because they protect patients from an infection that the medical professional may be carrying. They have also been around for a long time and medical staff knew about the requirement before they embarked on their careers.

We hoped last year that the Covid vaccines would prevent the transmission of Covid to others. Evidence now suggests this is not the case. The Covid vaccines are new - they still only have emergency authorisation in most developed countries. The requirement to vaccinate is also new.

I think people and governments have dug themselves in to entrenched positions on the back of last year’s knowledge. The Covid picture has now changed.

You have to set the bar really high if you want the state to be able to tell people what they put in to their own bodies. I do not think we are there with Covid.

@OniferousWasp because I found it interesting to understand the precedent within clinical staff and thought others in my non clinical position would too. it’s not aimed at clinical people because, like you say, they would be aware.

YABU because this is retrospective

A lot of the people refusing it have had covid and recovered. Why on earth would they need it? If it was affective at stopping transmission which it isn't with omicron (show me the stats on how much it is reduced with omicron please) then I could understand the mandate but it isn't affective at stopping transmission just severe disease. I wonder if it is even stopping severe disease now omicron is milder anyway. I'm triple vaxxed and had covid just before Xmas. It was a bad cold for me. My unvaccinated sister had it at the same time and wasn't as affected as me. This is pointless to do now when these people have probably already had it.

I'm not anti-vax. I've had my two jabs and booster and have also had Covid. But I don't agree with mandatory vaccination for
NHS or care workers.

At the start when the jabs were first being rolled out then I could understand the logic in that they were supposed to stop the spread and reduce transmission. It's abundantly clear, a year on, that they do not do this. These jabs are wholly unlike smallpox or measles or chickenpox - if you're vaccinated against those diseases you don't catch them. With Covid, you can be triple-vaxxed and easily catch Delta or Omicron and just as easily spread it.

Fundamentally it appears that the risk of being unvaccinated lies with the individual who hasn't had any vaccines. That's a personal choice. If their choice has sod all impact on those they care for then why on earth should there be mandatory vaccination? I can't see it's worth risking hundreds of thousands of jobs in a system that's already broken and on its knees, to make some kind of principled point.

My mother is in a care home. She's 82, has advanced dementia and I have no issue with those looking after her being unvaccinated.

Just to add I am in a non patient facing role in the NHS and had my vaccines as soon as I could but if I hadn't I would be served my notice in 2 weeks time. A couple of my colleagues who will never see a patient in their time in the NHS or even set foot in a clinical area as part of their job are facing this. Wtf are people ok with this?

@Theballoonsinthesky

A lot of the people refusing it have had covid and recovered. Why on earth would they need it?

Wow, this statement is one of the most clueless and ignorant things I have read on mumsnet.

You have CLEARLY never heard of long-covid then, and the awful after effects people have got! Also, very VERY few people who are unvaccinated, have symptoms that are 'just like a cold' when they have covid.

Stop spouting dangerous shit!

@NeedAHoliday2021

Answer me a question: if other vaccines are mandatory, why is the government going to the time and expense of consulting with the public and passing new legislation for covid and flu (which is an existing vaccine??)

There are a lot of differences between the Hep B situation and covid though. HCPs get tested first to see if they have immunity to Hep B. If needed, the vaccinations are then to protect the HCP from catching Hep B from the bodily fluids of a patient. Not vice versa!

I work in an NHS community team. We are made up of senior nurse practitioners (band 7 & 8) so at that level you can imagine most have worked for the NHS for many years. I have 5 nurse colleagues losing their jobs in April as they are refusing the vaccine. Our chief exec sent out an email last week basically saying I hate to brutal but those not vaccinated will be dismissed from their role but they will not be moved they will walk. Great shame as they are superb nurses but hey those are the rules.

@BungleandGeorge they’ve been talking about making flu mandatory for a few years (pre pandemic). I think they have a legal obligation to consult including the public. There’s some stringent engagement rules (I’m not up on these as it’s not in my remit so don’t know for certain).

YABU because you are wrong.

In some parts of the country (for example in Scotland) vaccination is not mandatory. And registration isn't dependent on vaccination.

Here's a link to the GMC guidance:

www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-hub/covid-19-questions-and-answers#[Vaccines]

I'm fully vaccinated and don't know of any HCP who isn't.

@Theballoonsinthesky if they do not work in a cqc required and inspected role and went “incidentally” enter an area where cqc roles are being carried out, they do not sit within the scope of the mandatory vaccine. Download the flowchart and tell them to discuss with hr. many organisations had to send letters out before the full guidance came out (which was only last week - i received it Friday).