To think that mp’s defecting to another party shouldn’t be allowed?

[AlternativePerspective]

So Christian Wakeford has defected to labour over the whole Boris fiasco.

Fair enough, he wants no part in it and wants out. However, when people vote for an mp they vote for a party, not an individual. Therefore an elected mp defecting to the opposition is essentially giving a seat to that opposition without the vote of his constituents, who hadn’t wanted that party in place Because they didn’t vote for them.

So if he wants out, he should resign from his constituency so that his constituents can decide whether or not they want labour in power or not.

I mean, if you lived in a Labour constituency and your mp became a Tory I presume people might have something to say about that (I would,) so surely it should just be a blanket policy?

@Unescorted

There will always be conflict where there are competing views. I would however expect my MP to vote in a way that does not cause detriment or hardship to his own constituents. I may not agree with that majority view but I would expect an elected representative to vote to uphold those views. What you don't want is one that is whipped so hard they have only voted against govt once even where it has been at the cost (environmental, socially and economically) for the majority of his constituents.

I would however expect my MP to vote in a way that does not cause detriment or hardship to his own constituents

But if all 650 did that, you'd never get anything passed.

What you don't want is one that is whipped so hard

Ah - well that's another issue.

Personally I like the idea of "primaries" (and whatever happened to the Conservative initiative over that ??????) where constituents can have an input into candidate selection as well as the central party machine. But I guess that runs counter to the "principle"* that an MP is a representative and not a delegate. And the problem with that "principle" is (a) it's a crock of shit, (b) it's a crock of shit, and (c) it's been superseded by the new normal of getting the electorate to do the job and blaming them.

*There are a lot of "principles" in the UK that none of us have ever been asked about. Which makes the concept of a social contract key to avoiding heads-on-spikes reforms.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elected_British_politicians_who_have_changed_party_affiliation

It’s a tradition that goes back hundreds of years. We vote for the individual, not the party, when we elect an MP.

@DGRossetti

We need a better voting system

The problem is our existing voting system consistently delivers around 500 people who really don't want to see a better voting system. And will continue to do so.

This is how revolutions happen. When "the system" is so geared to feeding "the system" that it becomes sclerotic and eventually corrupt and oppressive.

Look how hard it was to abolish slavery. And even when we did we (that is the British taxpayer until 2011) had to pay back the slave owners for the loss of their property.

And as we know, women would never have got the vote if they had solely relied on "the system" as it was.

There are a lot of things that could be done to vastly improve the UKs electoral system. Some form of PR, for a start, and getting rid of hereditary privilege and cronyism for a finish. I humbly suggest worrying about what rossette an MP might identify with at any given moment is really small beer in comparison.

I know. Doesn’t stop me wishing for a better system though.

I voted for the candidate I wanted, who happens to be a Labour MP. I'm usually a Tory voter but I wanted this candidate to continue as our MP as I've been impressed with the work she has done. YABU

Given that CW is one of the 2019 MPs there may be many voters backing him crossing the floor if they have also been disillusioned with Johnson.

This is the most likely explanation - his constituents have turned anti-tory (despite brexit being 'done', or maybe because of) and he's trying to save his skin.

I would really object to changing to where we vote for the party. In fact I think being too much under the party thumb is a real issue for MPs and in many cases means they cannot do their job of representing people effectively.

The vote is for a person, someone you could potentially have a real relationship with, rather than an abstract set of policies. This is a good thing - abstract sets of policies can't think and in the end, it would give more power to the few people who have a real hand in setting the policies of the party. You would have even more centralization of power within the parties and within the PMO.

As it is now, even the PM knows that even they play too fast and loose, they could loose MPs. The ability of MPs to really balk over bad legislation would be seriously eroded.

The lack of critical thinking on this thread is staggering...and probably explains why we have such a shower of shit acting as government for our country.

First past the post aka Parliamentary elections are based entirely on the votes an individual can amass. If someone chooses not to check if the candidate they are voting for will actually represent them but instead votes on party that's their choice, but they are still giving their vote to an individual who is elected to represent their constituents in the best way possible - part of this can be deciding whether their values continue to align with the party whip or if it becomes impossible to do.

Proportional representation devolved governments in Scotland and Wales use this as part of their elections, NI might too allows you to vote for a party seat for a set of potential candidates.

However, all that being said I don't think an MP should be able to switch party allegiance, I think the most they should be able to do is either resign as an MP triggering a by-election or to resign from their party thereby making themselves an independent candidate for the rest of their term. However, the law clearly allows this...so if you aren't happy - let your MP know!

This is the most likely explanation - his constituents have turned anti-tory (despite brexit being 'done', or maybe because of)

I think it's because of . That's why the Tories have been turning into Labour these past few months.

In 1971, council voters in Harrow dumped the Tories to bring comprehensive education to the borough with a Labour administration (NOC).

In 1974 they dumped Labour and went back to their Tory ways.

(As Max Boyce used to say: I know, because I was there ...)

Time will tell.

This is really quite mad- it doesn’t matter how you feel about how you vote, it matters what the reality is.

If you vote for your local MP because they’re a Tory, or a labour, it doesn’t matter. That is on YOU. You are not voting for the party, or for the leader. You vote for the local constituent. Who they then align themselves with is a matter for how the business of parliament proceeds. Of course how they align themselves will often (significantly) influence how many votes they get- this is why the whip exists. It’s a two way street- the MP essentially gives his/her support to the party and the parties chosen leader, and in return the MP gets the kudos and basically free votes for being that parties MP (being preselected).

In return the MP votes in line with party policy. The threat of “removing the whip” is essentially being expelled from the party. By moving to a US style of politics (party + leader) without actually having a US style political setup (we still just vote for our local MP) we hand extraordinary power to the PM in a way that was never before intended.

This is precisely what crossing the floor is about- it is a “vote of no confidence”. MPs that cross the floor will be threatened with losing the whip, but probably they don’t care if they’re from red wall seats because they’ll be crossing the floor for constituents who have largely voted labour until now.

TL;DR: you vote for the fucking local MP, not the party, not the leader, no matter how you feel or what you think. That is how our Westminster system of parliament works. If you don’t like it, feel free to campaign for change. Don’t pretend it’s something else. Cause it’s not. It doesn’t matter what party is written on the ballot, you vote for the person, not the party.

@Tomeeornottomee

I have voted for my local MP based on what he has done for our area, not by what party he represents. I have never voted for his party in a GE and I never would. Just because you only vote for a certain party doesn’t mean the rest of the voting populace does so too. YABU

You vote for your MP in the General Election.

Surely this is just a difference of opinion isn't it? Some people vote for the individual candidate that they prefer, other people vote along the party line.

@ChocolateDeficitDisorder

Given that CW is one of the 2019 MPs there may be many voters backing him crossing the floor if they have also been disillusioned with Johnson.

This is the most likely explanation - his constituents have turned anti-tory (despite brexit being 'done', or maybe because of) and he's trying to save his skin.

Oh yeah, I don't believe for one second this was solely down to an attack of conscience on his part. He's got a knife edge majority and all the party revelations will easily have cost him well over 400 votes.

You’re wrong. When you vote you vote for the party who is represented by the candidate.
You don’t tick “mike smith” in the box, you tick the name of the party you’re voting for.

No. You put a cross against "Mike Smith. 1 Sewer Street, Bogtown. The Conservative Party Candidate."

@Hiddenmnetter

This is really quite mad- it doesn’t matter how you feel about how you vote, it matters what the reality is.

If you vote for your local MP because they’re a Tory, or a labour, it doesn’t matter. That is on YOU. You are not voting for the party, or for the leader. You vote for the local constituent. Who they then align themselves with is a matter for how the business of parliament proceeds. Of course how they align themselves will often (significantly) influence how many votes they get- this is why the whip exists. It’s a two way street- the MP essentially gives his/her support to the party and the parties chosen leader, and in return the MP gets the kudos and basically free votes for being that parties MP (being preselected).

In return the MP votes in line with party policy. The threat of “removing the whip” is essentially being expelled from the party. By moving to a US style of politics (party + leader) without actually having a US style political setup (we still just vote for our local MP) we hand extraordinary power to the PM in a way that was never before intended.

This is precisely what crossing the floor is about- it is a “vote of no confidence”. MPs that cross the floor will be threatened with losing the whip, but probably they don’t care if they’re from red wall seats because they’ll be crossing the floor for constituents who have largely voted labour until now.

TL;DR: you vote for the fucking local MP, not the party, not the leader, no matter how you feel or what you think. That is how our Westminster system of parliament works. If you don’t like it, feel free to campaign for change. Don’t pretend it’s something else. Cause it’s not. It doesn’t matter what party is written on the ballot, you vote for the person, not the party.

This. It's a bit mad how many people don't realise this.

You don't vote for a party, you don't vote for a prime minister, you vote for a local member of parliament.

Lots of people may think they're voting Tory / Labour etc but that's not how our political system actually works.

@Tomeeornottomee

Um... you vote for you MP during the general election. It means you're choosing them, but you're also choosing a seat for the party they are aligned with at that time. So yes, we elect an individual but it means we give a seat to whichever party they are with.

@TameDucksAtChatsworth

What would happen if Boris Johnson-or any other Prime Minister- said they were "crossing the floor". So, they were still PM-still in power- but were now pushing through policies of the opposition.

Would that be reasonable?

Of course not and nor is it reasonable for any MP to do this.

They obviously wouldn’t remain PM because they would no longer be part of the party with the majority

There seems to be a lack of understanding that Boris Johnson is only Prime Minister because he’s leader of the party with a majority in the House of Commons. You didn’t vote for him unless you live in Uxbridge and voted Conservative and even then you only voted for him to be your MP, not Prime Minister. It’s not like electing the US President.

We have so many threads on here berating Tory voters. How would the people feel who are condemning Tories feel if their Labour MP crossed the floor?

@steff13

Surely this is just a difference of opinion isn't it? Some people vote for the individual candidate that they prefer, other people vote along the party line.

No. Regardless of whether you choose to vote along party lines or not - and a lot do - you are in fact voting for the individual.

You vote for a party represented by the person that party has chosen.

I think they should resign and re-stand and let the electorate decide.

@mumda

You vote for a party represented by the person that party has chosen.

I think they should resign and re-stand and let the electorate decide.

No, you vote for an individual who at the time of the election is standing for a particular party (or as an independent). Whether you realise it or not, that's what you're doing.

You vote for party and candidate. I think there should be a bielection. I also think this mp could have sent a letter to support removing Johnson.

He did send a letter requesting Johnson to stand down, but it no longer counts towards the 54 letter target as he's no longer an MP

@Jjjayfee

You vote for party and candidate. I think there should be a bielection. I also think this mp could have sent a letter to support removing Johnson.

No, you vote for a candidate. Your chosen candidate may be aligned with a political party or may be independent. You do not vote for a political party in a general election, and if you believe you are doing so then you are misinformed.

..no longer a Conservative MP I should say