To think Montessori is massively overhyped?

[Sherekhancarolbaskin]

Or does it truly have proven pedagogic advantages?

I’m already not a fan of the Waldorf Steiner method at all.

Montessori does seem a lot better to me but after having looked into it a lot of it seems a bit off to me. Besides the fact Maria Montessori did questionable things as a parent herself, abandoning her own son

All the way to adulthood, actually.

Really? You think you can precisely quantify the influence of the choice of nursery setting on adults?

As someone said upthread, it's hard to unpick anyway because the children going to a Montessori are likely to be a different cohort going in. There's a preschool near me that people say is just amazing and that all the children do so well at school. No one ever seems to point out that it's in the most expensive bit of town and seems to have its hours deliberately set to deter working parents (runs different hours every day of the week, no session longer than five hours, and closes entirely on a Tuesday) and so the children who go there are all from wealthy families who can afford a SAHP which maybe - just maybe - has some bearing on the outcomes for the children.

I didn't know they were lacking imaginary play
I wouldn't like this at all

Standard ealry years training in nurseries and schools now incorporates a load of Montessori practices.

But, as ever, its all about the setting.

Here in our grim up North run of the mill suburb the Montessori nursery was not fancy, not used just by the well heeled and parentally over anxious and my elder 2 thrived there.

I don't really like the whole "educational philosophy" thing as it can be really cult like and people get trapped thinking there's only one right way of doing things.

I home educate my son so I know a lot of montessori parents (and steiner).

I know nothing about Montessori but I have over the years managed 3 people who went to Steiner schools. All three were ill equipped for adulthood and the working environment in the same way.

@purpleme12

I didn't know they were lacking imaginary play I wouldn't like this at all

It's one of the quite interesting things from Montessori that marks it out as a very different educational philosophy rather than just little furniture and wooden toys.

Montessori believed that as children cannot reliably separate reality and fantasy before about 5 or 6, adults should keep young children's experiences real and concrete and not impose their own fantasy on children. So children can role play things like looking after baby dolls or dressing up as a policeman, but they aren't introduced to stories with fairies and dragons and talking pigs until after about age 6.

I didn't know they were lacking imaginary play

Ours certainly doesn't.

They seem to be a very broad church. You can't move for Montessori's where I am (Dublin) but the application of principles varies hugely I'm sure.

I love the one we use, but I'm not sure how much of that is its Montessori background and how much is the individual nursery ethos. There are some things they major in on which feel like they come from the teaching, which I really like. They're big on promoting independence and building concentration for example. But if I was ever looking for another nursery, I wouldn't be wedded to Montessori necessarily.

So children can role play things like looking after baby dolls or dressing up as a policeman, but they aren't introduced to stories with fairies and dragons and talking pigs until after about age 6.

I've never seen that in real life tbf.

@TheKeatingFive

So children can role play things like looking after baby dolls or dressing up as a policeman, but they aren't introduced to stories with fairies and dragons and talking pigs until after about age 6.

I've never seen that in real life tbf.

Yes, for lots of nurseries just putting "Montessori" in the name is a marketing thing, they aren't actually following a Montessori curriculum or using Montessori trained staff.

The Montessori classrooms are also always really quiet because all the kids are totally engrossed in their activities.

Also because people with children who wouldn't fit into this are self excluding.

When I visited and saw how quiet and controlled the classroom was in our local Montessori, and thought about my DS charging about it, I knew it wasn't a good fit for him.

In the lovely nursery in our old town, they had access to outside space and could go and play out there whenever they wanted. Not in the Montessori - they had set playtimes which I think is too formal for early years.

The idea that you can or can't 'tell' the difference if a kid's gone to a Montessori school is giving me the rage. A teacher thinking that you can know everything about a kid's learning/education/experience by what comes out when you turn a handle is basically everything that's wrong with the attitude to education in this country.

I think some of the Montessori practices are brilliant and am very glad that they are incorporated into most early years settings now - up to now a sector mostly overlooked by the government's ridiculous 'test it until it bleeds' approach to children's education, apart from criminally underfunding it.

@busyeatingbiscuits wow imaginary play was a massive part of my child's life (and our life) in the early years
In fact it was one of things I must enjoyed about her
I have definitely learned things from this thread

I once dated a guy who went to a Montessori school and he was such a fucking weirdo. He didn’t own a TV because ‘bad vibes’, ditto a microwave. He also ‘listened’ to spaghetti as he cooked it, as in he would pick a strand out and place it to his ear to have a listen then would deem it cooked or not from there… absolute nut job. Big cannabis problem too. May or may not be linked to his early years education but it’s enough to put me off .

they aren't actually following a Montessori curriculum or using Montessori trained staff.

Our nursery is doing both of those things.

It's not all or nothing.

All three were ill equipped for adulthood and the working environment in the same way

Well I felt like that about the working environment tbh and I went to a mainstream school. I couldn't go freelance quick enough.

It does hugely vary they can just be a person at a table and Montessori in the name

Or fuller approach, but other differentiator was higher staff ratio, loads of space and yes it was quiet in comparison to other one. Dc asked if they could play together etc

But we’ve used a nursery that was similar without Montessori but as part of pre-prep

The key difference for both was not offering 30 free hours but 15 only in that age range. So you had higher paid staff but it was more expensive

The idea that you can or can't 'tell' the difference if a kid's gone to a Montessori school is giving me the rage. A teacher thinking that you can know everything about a kid's learning/education/experience by what comes out when you turn a handle is basically everything that's wrong with the attitude to education in this country.

This x10000. Exactly why I home educate.

@Sartre

I once dated a guy who went to a Montessori school and he was such a fucking weirdo. He didn’t own a TV because ‘bad vibes’, ditto a microwave. He also ‘listened’ to spaghetti as he cooked it, as in he would pick a strand out and place it to his ear to have a listen then would deem it cooked or not from there… absolute nut job. Big cannabis problem too. May or may not be linked to his early years education but it’s enough to put me off .

That sounds more like Steiner - they believe there's a demon that comes through electronic devices

We looked round one for ds1, but the worker changing a toddler's nappy on an activity table in full view of anyone and everyone and seeing lots of sharp tacks on the floor - amongst other debris - somewhat put me off. The manager was an idiot as well.

@habibihabibi

Modern early childhood provisions incorporate a lot of Montessori concepts. When it was conceived 80 years ago, it was revolutionary..now not so much. The wooden learning materials are beautiful though.

Yes, outdoor play, messy play, learn-through-play have all been incorporated into standard nursery/early years curriculum.

There are some great things about Montessori, some less great, and much of it comes down to the individual teacher/school/head.

I think the biggest drawback is that there isn't an equivalent for secondary, so children that have learned a more free-structured approach with more creativity and individual responsibility are maybe going to struggle a bit when they get to a generally more autocratic, regimented secondary.

(This always makes me think of Trainspotting:

'If you liked school, you'll love work'.)

Some of it seems good, I’m really into teaching kids life skills and think they enjoy feeling independent. I don’t like the “no make believe” rule for books at all, and I think people stress themselves out trying to do it perfectly with expensive toys etc rather than just taking what suits

We have two Montessori nurseries in my town. One prides itself on being "true" Montessori, following the method strictly. The other uses a mix of Montessori teaching and modern day methods.

I'd heard people rave about Montessori, but having spent about an hour observing the "true" Montessori, I came away hating it.

The thing about Montessori IMO is it was revolutionary in its time - the idea that play is the work of children is very compelling.

However, when the Montessori method was invented in 1906, I can well imagine that it was vastly different from mainstream schools that has strict discipline including corporal punsishment and were into learning by rote.

However the world has moved on since 1906! And, in a way, Montessori's ideas have been adopted by the mainstream. The Early Years Foundation Stage in schools (nursery & reception) puts learning by play at its centre, and - done well - blows traditional Montessori schools out of the water IMO.

My friend's children in a Montessori are independent, creative and more likely to ask questions trying to work things out. Perhaps this would have been the case wherever they had gone to school but it certainly hasn't harmed them from what she says and what I have noticed.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

We looked round one for ds1, but the worker changing a toddler's nappy on an activity table in full view of anyone and everyone and seeing lots of sharp tacks on the floor - amongst other debris - somewhat put me off. The manager was an idiot as well.

Where are they supposed to change nappies that bit sounds normal for a nursery.

Some observations about differences between the Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS) - i.e. standard nurseries and reception) & Montessori:

IIRC, EYFS recommends that all childen should have access to the outside at all times if possible. Montessori doesn't.

My DC's reception class in a mainstream primary was a wonderful place of free-flow learning, with activities set up around the class and outside designed to appeal this specific group of kids. (They visited us all at home before the DC started school and found out what their interests were so they could do this.)

The children could choose whether they learned inside or outside, and there were tasks set up outside to suit the children who liked to be active and noisy, as well as calmer activities inside for the DC who likes to learn quietly and calmly - unlike the Montessori that only catered for DC who knew how to sit quietly all day - an unreasonable ask of nursery & reception age DC if you ask me!

The Montessori was much more rigid. All the DC were sitting at tables for one, or on mats, for one. They had the choice of which bits of equipment to use (Montesorri standard, only), but it was clear that they were expected to get it, come back to a space for one, and interact with it on their own, not play with others. I noticed when DC did play together, the Montessori teacher subtly stopped the play. I don't know if it was just this teacher or if this is typical but I found it controlling and stiffling of creativity and play.

For example, two girls started playing and dancing together. The teacher stopped the whole class, stopped the girls' game and brought them all together in a circle so they could take turns to go into the circle one at a time and dance. I was annoyed for the girls, they were having a lovely game together, it really didn't need the teacher to formalise it.

Similarly, a child wanted to roll around with one of the little mats, pretending he was a sausage roll. It was, again, a bit of spontaneous creativity. He was gently encouraged to stop too. Another boy wasn't using his equipment in the "correct" way, so he was gently guided to do so.

There was no home corner, no book corner, no messy play, no free flow to outside, no groups of children playing together. It was so controlled, free play and genuine creativity was squashed. I absolutely hated it. And I hate to think how a noisy child who needs a lot of exercise and stimulation would fare there. Not well, I imagine.

The one that was mixed Montessori / modern methods seemed a lot better than the strict one, which was just unnecessarily dogmatic IMO.