To think some people are ‘enjoying’ the pandemic

[Flynnqwer]

I’ve noticed an attitude amongst some people where they’re nothing short of praying for a new, more lethal, variant.

I’ve noticed it amongst people I work with and people I do a hobby with. Any discussion about going back to our workplace (we can work from home but not easily or particularly effectively) once the Government ends the restrictions on waiting from home, or back to our hobby in real life instead of on Zoom (the hobby is controlled by a central board who are following the WFH advice until it is lifted) are met with cries of ‘No! We can’t do that! It’s dangerous!’ and it anyone points out that, thankfully, it looks like the vaccination programme is working and Omicron is less severe, they come back with ‘but what if there’s a more lethal strain that appears and kills millions?’

My workplace has one element which has legally got to be done in person. I have had emails today from managers begging us to cancel said work thing and do it online. We cannot do it on line lawfully (it’s along the lines of witnessing signatures). We have told them no, we must go into the building for an hour to fulfil this function. They are saying that that is breaking the working from home directive, that it’s unsafe, and what if a deadly variant is discovered? Then we’d have to find a way around the law.

AIBU that some people are actively hoping that the situation worsens and we are locked back down? Why would anyone want this to happen?

This reads like Dr Seuss. I, too, wish things were as simple and neat as this. But they are not. There are far too many factors at play.

But we're coming out of it now! Omicron has displaced Delta & the other variants, and is much less virulent, but it still gives good immunity against all the variants. It's spreading quickly, and there is nothing we can do to stop it. Everyone will be exposed, the disease will be very mild, and then everyone will be immune.

I meant to copy the above before my reply:

This reads like Dr Seuss. I, too, wish things were as simple and neat as this. But they are not. There are far too many factors at play.

@PandorasBex

But we're coming out of it now! Omicron has displaced Delta & the other variants, and is much less virulent, but it still gives good immunity against all the variants. It's spreading quickly, and there is nothing we can do to stop it. Everyone will be exposed, the disease will be very mild, and then everyone will be immune.

I meant to copy the above before my reply:

This reads like Dr Seuss. I, too, wish things were as simple and neat as this. But they are not. There are far too many factors at play.

I don't see why not? When it's over, it's over. Did you think we'd be wearing masks & locking ourselves away forever?

@SafeMove

If people have enjoyed the pandemic there is something seriously amiss. 5.5 million worldwide have died in under 2 years. Surely they aren't enjoying it, rather they've just been terrified by the frequent and rapid deaths and don't feel confident enough to feel blase about it yet? Some people consolidate threat more quickly than others.

But look, there have always been people who enjoy drama, illness, misery, etc.

@Flynnqwer

Some people seemed to really enjoy lockdowns because they didn’t like to socialise but didn’t like to feel left out, so they were happy to see everyone stopped from socialising.

This exactly. This explains much better what I was trying to say.

And YANBU

It’s not that they enjoy people dying, it’s everything else they enjoy. Anything they didn’t want to do- perfect excuse! Covid! WFH = yay!!!!! Furlough= yay… 🙄 excuse to do sweet fanny adams = yay. Whilst other people worked their asses off! I went from part time to a 50 hour week, whilst people had time off and got lockdown dogs. Then things reopened and suddenly they no longer wanted their lockdown dogs.

@SkyDragon

But we're coming out of it now! Omicron has displaced Delta & the other variants, and is much less virulent, but it still gives good immunity against all the variants. It's spreading quickly, and there is nothing we can do to stop it. Everyone will be exposed, the disease will be very mild, and then everyone will be immune.

Amen to this. I don't know why people don't get it! A mild transmissible variant spells the end of a pandemic. It's not BS at all.

Omicron is less virulent than Delta and Alpha but 50% more virulent than the original wild type variant that began in 2020.

Globally the pandemic is clearly not over. Hopefully the omicron wave is starting to ebb in England and we must hope a new variant of concern does not develop somewhere in the world, a risk when cases still high.

For the vaccinated the majority thankfully will not get severely affected risking hospitalization and even death. However, the vulnerable which are not small in number, have seen 5 million suggested, despite vaccination have a higher risk of complications or their bodies cant even mount a sufficient immine response to the vaccination.

For these reasons it would be more sensible to not remove all measures now as our govt are doing when cases are still quite high but wait till at least they've got lower. The BMA think some measures should stay in place a bit longer and wrote the following:

"Responding to the announcement made by the PM today on his decision to relax Plan B Covid restrictions, BMA council chair Dr Chaand Nagpaul said:

“Today’s announcement from the Prime Minister risks creating a false sense of security when the levels of infection and illness remain high, and the NHS is still under crippling pressure.

This decision clearly is not guided by the data. When Plan B was introduced in December, there were 7,373 patients in hospital in the UK- the latest data this week shows there are 18,9791. Case numbers too are nearly twice as many.

“The pressures on the NHS are clear for everyone to see. We have a record backlog of 6 million patients at a time when cancelling operations, Trusts are declaring critical incidents and ambulance delays are jeopardising public safety.

Removing all restrictions risks a rebound in the number of infections across society, would inevitably increase hospitalisation rates, further destabilise patient care and drive up the rate of staff absences and the number of people with long CoVid

“It is vital that the Government acts according to the data and takes a measured approach. Removing effective infection control measures like mask wearing on public transport and indoor crowded spaces will inevitably increase transmission and place the public at greater risk, especially for those who are vulnerable. We recognise the implications of restrictions on our society, but equally we have seen the impact of the failure to control the virus on the economy, business and education.”

“The announcement by the Prime Minister that he will seek to end self-isolation rules is premature, especially given the statement by the WHO earlier today that the pandemic is far from over amidst high global case rates and the risk of new variants emerging.”

Forgive lack of paragraphs in my comment above. Am on my phone and seems the paragraphs I put in have not registered

@Tzimi

I don't see why not? When it's over, it's over. Did you think we'd be wearing masks & locking ourselves away forever?

Again, simplistic. Of course we're not going to do these things "forever". These kinds of responses are just silly.

See @Zotter's post for a good summary why.

[quote PandorasBex]@Tzimi

I don't see why not? When it's over, it's over. Did you think we'd be wearing masks & locking ourselves away forever?

Again, simplistic. Of course we're not going to do these things "forever". These kinds of responses are just silly.

See @Zotter's post for a good summary why.[/quote]
Ok, well we're going to find out soon anyway. At least people who are well won't be isolating, so that should relieve some of the stress due to staff shortages. Silly or not, we're going to find out soon enough...

@Tzimi

Ok, well we're going to find out soon anyway. At least people who are well won't be isolating, so that should relieve some of the stress due to staff shortages. Silly or not, we're going to find out soon enough...

What does this even mean? And how does it relate to the 'silly' comment, which was about posters often saying people want masks and lockdowns forever?

If you can’t define any end date for when you want things to stop, and keep saying “obviously not NOW” to people suggesting one, then you shouldn’t be that surprised if people assume you do effectively mean forever.

“We shouldn’t lift restrictions now, it’s far too soon.”
“Ok, how about when we have vaccines?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants a vaccine has had one?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants to be boosted has?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants a vaccine has had two doses plus a booster, and we’re fairly confident the NHS won’t be overwhelmed, and cases are plummeting, and we have decent evidence from other countries that the existing measures won’t do massive amounts to slow omicron anyway?”
“No, too soon.”
“So never, then?”
“Of course not NEVER! How silly of you…”

@GoldenOmber

If you can’t define any end date for when you want things to stop, and keep saying “obviously not NOW” to people suggesting one, then you shouldn’t be that surprised if people assume you do effectively mean forever.

“We shouldn’t lift restrictions now, it’s far too soon.”
“Ok, how about when we have vaccines?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants a vaccine has had one?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants to be boosted has?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants a vaccine has had two doses plus a booster, and we’re fairly confident the NHS won’t be overwhelmed, and cases are plummeting, and we have decent evidence from other countries that the existing measures won’t do massive amounts to slow omicron anyway?”
“No, too soon.”
“So never, then?”
“Of course not NEVER! How silly of you…”

Ha exactly

Did you think we'd be wearing masks & locking ourselves away forever?

It's quite clear that there are people on this thread who do think this, or at least for another few years. One poster said it "would be unlikely that you'd die" before you could stop doing these things "unless you are in your late 80s".

I suppose it depends what people consider the emergency to be.

If you think that these measures are warranted for an emergency, but you think the emergency is “hundreds of thousands of people could die in a few months and the NHS could collapse”, you will likely be wanting restrictions lifted as soon as that threat has passed.

But some people consider the emergency situation to be “covid still exists and I might still get it”, in which case you’d be looking at these restrictions for a very long time.

I suppose it depends what people consider the emergency to be.

If you think that these measures are warranted for an emergency, but you think the emergency is “hundreds of thousands of people could die in a few months and the NHS could collapse”, you will likely be wanting restrictions lifted as soon as that threat has passed.

But some people consider the emergency situation to be “covid still exists and I might still get it”, in which case you’d be looking at these restrictions for a very long time.

Exactly right.

Also worth remembering who else likes to shut themselves and their immediate families away from the outside world: abusers. Abusers got the green light to meddle, stalk, spy, control and punish in March 2020 and they've been keeping on happily ever since - 'We're just keeping you Safe from Covid, darling, now get back in the cellar...'

@GoldenOmber

If you can’t define any end date for when you want things to stop, and keep saying “obviously not NOW” to people suggesting one, then you shouldn’t be that surprised if people assume you do effectively mean forever.

“We shouldn’t lift restrictions now, it’s far too soon.”
“Ok, how about when we have vaccines?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants a vaccine has had one?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants to be boosted has?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants a vaccine has had two doses plus a booster, and we’re fairly confident the NHS won’t be overwhelmed, and cases are plummeting, and we have decent evidence from other countries that the existing measures won’t do massive amounts to slow omicron anyway?”
“No, too soon.”
“So never, then?”
“Of course not NEVER! How silly of you…”

My thoughts exactly...

When asked those people will often say "I've never said we'll need them forever"... but they can never give a credible answer as to what would need to happen for restrictions to be lifted.

@GoldenOmber

If you can’t define any end date for when you want things to stop, and keep saying “obviously not NOW” to people suggesting one, then you shouldn’t be that surprised if people assume you do effectively mean forever.

“We shouldn’t lift restrictions now, it’s far too soon.”
“Ok, how about when we have vaccines?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants a vaccine has had one?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants to be boosted has?”
“No, too soon.”
“When everyone who wants a vaccine has had two doses plus a booster, and we’re fairly confident the NHS won’t be overwhelmed, and cases are plummeting, and we have decent evidence from other countries that the existing measures won’t do massive amounts to slow omicron anyway?”
“No, too soon.”
“So never, then?”
“Of course not NEVER! How silly of you…”

Hyperbole aside, I think the your clearest answer lies in when cases are plummeting. When this is occurring, and the development of variants is no longer an urgent (although it will be ongoing) concern, and the vulnerable population is protected, things can settle back to normal.

@Wreath21

Also worth remembering who else likes to shut themselves and their immediate families away from the outside world: abusers. Abusers got the green light to meddle, stalk, spy, control and punish in March 2020 and they've been keeping on happily ever since - 'We're just keeping you Safe from Covid, darling, now get back in the cellar...'

You really are a peach.

Well, cases are plummeting now, there are no new VOCs on the horizon looking like a serious issue, and the vulnerable have all been offered boosters and in some cases third primary doses.

So we’re sorted, right? Or is it still too soon?

This ignores it's a moving situation due to new variants

Lift all measures now when cases still high and 19000 in hospital means NHS continue to be under immense pressure. Doctors and nurses say patient care is already compromised with 19000 in hospital. This will continue if all measures lifted now as cases will remain higher than if waited a a few more weeks until cases get lower.

Also many children still not vaccinated increasing their risk of long CoVid and govt have made no attempt at improving ventilation and filtration in schools.

As to when we should lift measures after this omicron wave many epidemiologists and medical staff say when cases and thus hospital numbers have reduced further. Current measures like masks in public places are not in my view onerous and help to keep transmission down especially in schools. It's reckless to reduce all measures at this point when they just have to wait a little longer as long as a new variant of concern doesn't develop in the meantime!

A group of experts here all say bar one it's too soon. www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-media-reports-suggesting-boris-johnson-is-expected-to-announce-an-easing-of-covid-19-rules-in-england-later-in-an-anticipated-statement-on-plan-b/

@GoldenOmber

Well, cases are plummeting now, there are no new VOCs on the horizon looking like a serious issue, and the vulnerable have all been offered boosters and in some cases third primary doses.

So we’re sorted, right? Or is it still too soon?

Don't be silly: people still think it's possible to enjoy themselves and the live events industry hasn't been completely destroyed, nor has every pub in the country been turned into (unusable but somehow still profitable) office blocks...

@GoldenOmber

I suppose it depends what people consider the emergency to be.

If you think that these measures are warranted for an emergency, but you think the emergency is “hundreds of thousands of people could die in a few months and the NHS could collapse”, you will likely be wanting restrictions lifted as soon as that threat has passed.

But some people consider the emergency situation to be “covid still exists and I might still get it”, in which case you’d be looking at these restrictions for a very long time.

Really agree with this. Some people really think that emergency restrictions should exist until Covid doesn’t exist. But realistically if that’s the case you might as well lock down forever, because there will always be illnesses, including Covid.

@psychomath

So while I think it's not very psychologically healthy for people to retreat completely into their nuclear families and feel highly imposed upon by minnimal social interactions, I'm not sure it's something the rest of us need to be particularly concerned about, except insofar as it's a good thing to care about the wellbeing of others in general. If the only time we notice this trend is online, that suggests maybe it's not having such a huge impact in the offline world.

This is interesting. I think you're right that this is a trend which originates in the internet (and people spending far too much time in the internet and in their own heads).

And until recently these people were easily pigeonholed as "geeks" and people who couldn't cope with the real world etc, but not taken very seriously. People who game all day long, people who sit on Reddit (or Mumsnet) threads arguing with people and don't have a social life. They were always a bit marginalised.

What's interesting, I think, that lockdowns, and the experience of spending hours online in your bedroom, have mainstreamed this behaviour.

I've seen some very neurotic behaviour recently at my company concerning work technology etiquette: people have had actual face to face arguments about whether its more appropriate to use WhatsApp, email, text or your diary to let team mates know they are going to be away from their desk for a period of time.

It was really bizarre: for me this just doesn't matter. I couldn't get upset about which mode of technology people choose to relay a very minor bit of office admin. I literally couldn't give a shit. But lots of people were really upset about violations of these codes, saying using one medium over another was "massively inappropriate". I was just gobsmacked - it was a real WTF moment for me.

It made me realise that some of that weird over-focus on online etiquette which was the preserve of people who basically only interact with other people online has crept into formal office codes.

I guess in a way we do need to be more conscious of electronic etiquette as it becomes an ever-more central part of our lives, so if people are upset we should listen to them. But again, I did think there was something pretty pathological about this reaction.

As to when we should lift measures after this omicron wave many epidemiologists and medical staff say when cases and thus hospital numbers have reduced further.

Okay, so on current trends, cases and hospital numbers will both have reduced further tomorrow. Can we lift them tomorrow then? Or do you want them to reduce below a particular number? What is that number? And how should we factor in the lower hospitalisation burden of omicron into that, and how should we recognise that any numbers brought lower through restrictions will obviously go up again once restrictions end?

I know it seems very picky to ask what, exactly, it is that you want to see here. But if you are expecting 67 million people to submit to continued restrictions on their lives, I really don’t think it’s too much to ask for some exit criteria on that beyond “when it feels safer to me, not really sure what that looks like but I expect I’ll know it when I see it.”