Was I in the wrong regarding overtime situation? Don't like what the staff tried to do

[Donthaveagoodusername]

I'm employed by an agency and currently on a long term placement at a nursery. My shifts are 8-5, or 9-6, but usually 8-5.

According to staff here, pretty much nobody leaves on time as it has to be based on staffing numbers for children, I get it but it's not fair on the staff. People are on the rota to finish at 4 but end up staying until 6:30 a lot of the time, and they are paid £8.91 an hour. I don't really know why they put up with it but it's easy for me to say.

I don't mind doing it on the very odd occasion if staff go home sick or whatever but I'm not prepared to do it on a regular basis. 10 minutes is one thing, not 2 hours.

The other night I stayed an extra 30 minutes for them. I also have another part time evening job which I have to get to and that night I did.

So today I was on 8-5 and I told them this at 8am (the nursery staff in my room). So they knew the staffing situation from 8am.

They must have been talking about me as one of them asked 'so what's your other job?' even though she wasn't there when I had told them about it.

Today about 2pm one girl said (yes I call them girls as some are 17-19 years old) 'Oh btw do you have to get to your 2nd job tonight?' I said no how come, do you need me to stay later? And she said 'no no just wondered'. Hmmm.

Anyway I'd heard one was on until 6:30, the other 2 until 4:30 but the 17 year old cannot stay late due to being underage.

So the other girl makes comments like 'ooh well I'm supposed to go at 4:30 but I might have to stay until 6'.

Nobody at any point has asked me to stay later. Then it gets to 4:25 and the girl says 'oh we only have 8 kids so I can go now, have a great weekend guys!' I realize it would just be 2 of us until 6:30 even though I'm meant to be on until 5.

So I say 'sorry but I cannot stay past 5, I haven't been asked and it's too short notice, I have got plans'.
Then the girl says it's fine, yet I see her and the other one give each other that pissed off sort of glance.

So I figured they were just planning to let me stay 1h30 extra without even asking or telling me at all. Just assuming I will do it probably as I'm agency and I'm quiet. I'm not putting a stranger first, especially one who does that to me. I don't force her to do overtime.
I think I was assertive and hopefully did the right thing? If someone had asked me earlier on and been honest that's different, but they said nothing.

Agree, I would have thought your hours would be kept to minimum as chances are the staff are paid less, especially the under 18s, although they may not count for ratios. You should only agree additional hours with the manager. If asked you need to insist that your shift finishes at 5.

@BlueStripedTowel

I think i'd be very worried sending my child there!

I really hope DS nursery doesn’t treat the staff like this.

It’s awful that she just tried to put you in that position without asking - just manipulating you into it by trying to walk out. Good for you for pulling her up.

I think you should speak to the manager in the first place, to say “look I just need to know my hours before they start”. I agree they’re not much of a manager if no one knows who is working what hours, and there’s no firm plan.

If they take no notice just leave!

Hey, I work for a really good childcare agency in London. Above minimum wage and you don't have to go back to jobs you don't like.

I've been there since August and have found an amazing nursery that I think I'm going to stay permanently.

Dm me if you want more info.

This 4:30 woman was actually very accommodating to you.

At 4:30 she could've left, her shift was done

I don’t think this is right - I think this woman was due on shift til 6.30 but tried to leave early because, at that precise moment, they were within ratio.

It sounds like they're still in their teens? They don't have the authority to ask you to stay late. Your annoyance is misplaced. It sounds shit for everyone. Ask your agency to put you somewhere else. With everyone off isolating everywhere there must be a lot of options

How can you not know if you're being paid for this situation ? Why on earth haven't you asked your agency or the manager.

Other posters are correct - there are too few staff rostered and that is not the fault of the other women there. It's the fault of the manager(s) and they are sitting pretty raking in the money and being able to get away without paying for enough staff to do the job properly.

You need to ask direct questions.

You ask your agency if you are being paid for those extra hours. If they waffle the response is "This is a yes/no question".

You ask your manager why this keeps happening and so last minute, and make it clear that while you can stay an extra 10 minutes, and that's fine, you can't stay an extra two hours without notice and your agreement in advance.

I'm not up on recent legislation, but I believe a break of 30 minutes is also insufficient. The lunch break should be 45 minutes if there is catering on site (such as a canteen) or 60 minutes if you have to leave the site for lunch.

In any event, without clarity as to whether you're being paid for those extra hours - and you need to ask directly as above - it's hard to give further advice.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

This 4:30 woman was actually very accommodating to you.

At 4:30 she could've left, her shift was done

I don’t think this is right - I think this woman was due on shift til 6.30 but tried to leave early because, at that precise moment, they were within ratio.

You are wrong. Reread the OP.

In the OP it clearly states only 1 person was on until 6:30 (despite 2 being needed - bad management again) and everyone else, other than OP who was off at 5, was off at 4:30

Anyway I'd heard one was on until 6:30, the other 2 until 4:30 but the 17 year old cannot stay late due to being underage

So the other girl makes comments like 'ooh well I'm supposed to go at 4:30 but I might have to stay until 6'

Her theorising that she might need to stay till 6 doesn't mean her shift didn't actually end at 4:30

This is ridiculous. None of you are paid to make these decisions and nobody should be working unpaid/unagreed overtime. The staff need to push this back to their manager - you need to pass it on to the agency. Work your hours and leave. If you're 'forced' to stay (because the children won't be safe) then make it very clear that it's not acceptable and won't be happening again.

I get really pissed off when managers make their staff 'responsible' for this sort of shit - the staff end up bitching between themsleves and blaming each other.

I don’t understand why on earth the nursery is scheduling people to finish before the nursery is empty.

Given that they know full well that many children won’t be collected until 6.30, then surely the shift end time needs to push back to 8-5.30 or 9-6.30, and paid accordingly. If the places empties early, people get to finish early, and are paid accordingly.

This is easily fixed. By management.

You need to take it up with the manager, and she needs to address it with the owners.

Nursery owners are notorious for cutting costs.

You’re time to finish is your time.

Tell the manager you are finished and ask who is covering you.

@Foolsrule

The way nursery staff are treated like this is criminal. They can’t leave the children unattended, obviously, so management lean heavily on the most amenable. The fact you’re agency is handy. Just tell them you don’t want to go back to this place cos they’re bullying you. The industry is crying out for staff. You’ll have a new job by 8am Monday!

This. That's the benefit of being agency. As to the regular staff they should leave at the appointed time, up to the manager to sort it.

You're not being unreasonable. They are taking the piss. It's not your problem. If they are going to fall below the legal minimum staff ratio they will have to ring the parents to collect early . They do this regularly at my granddaughters nursery

Just get up and fuck off when your shift is over.

Op has said she's only been there 8 days. There was no one else to ask other than the staff present. When I've worked with bank staff they've rarely been asked to stay on. It appears that this staying late thing is generally decided on an ad hoc basis between the girls and op has not been informed of any of this. I wouldn't expect someone who's only been in post 8 days to be staying on. It's not down to op, management should officially rota for this and tell the girls what days will be their turn to stay on if needed.

@goawaystormy

This 4:30 woman was actually very accommodating to you.

At 4:30 she could've left, her shift was done and ratios were fine so she was well within her rights to leave. Even if you'd said 'hold on I'm leaving at 5, there won't be enough people' she would actually be well within her rights to go 'sounds like a 5 o'clock problem' and walk out. Then when it got to 5 you'd have to make the choice to either leave, leaving not enough staff to child ratio and possibly get reprimanded for it (as I'm sure all childcare places consider keeping ratios correct as an extenuating circumstance where staff have to stay and would be deemed irresponsible early years practitioners if they didn't), or stay and do the overtime.

This is 100% a management problem. She was actually very accommodating to you staying at that point, she facilitated you being able to leave on time by her staying. No one needed to facilitate her leaving because at that point in time everything was fine for her to leave, and as she's not management, thinking ahead and planning isn't her job.

You talking out of your hat.

The other women are EMPLOYEES of the Nursery, not employed by the Agency. The responsibility to stay late/deal with a problem will always be down to the employed staff to deal with.

The Agency will charge a higher fee to the Nursery if their staff have to do overtime. Therefore, OP will be expected to work only her contracted hours unless the overtime is agreed in advance with the Agency.

She can't leave as can lose her DBS.

I have seen this in other places. But the permanent staff are the ones who have to staff not you her for safeguarding reasons mostly.

I would've done it once and then never gone back.

@BlueStripedTowel

I think i'd be very worried sending my child there!

I have worked in childcare since I was 17 (16 years) and every nursery I have worked in is like this.

You should be more concerned if staff are leaving on time if it means the ratios are out.

goawaystormy

You seem to be going out of your way to put the OP in the wrong.

The other women are EMPLOYEES of the Nursery, not employed by the Agency. The responsibility to stay late/deal with a problem will always be down to the employed staff to deal with.

But at 4:30 there wasn't a problem! If 4:30 woman left on time and was then pulled in a reprimanded for it later she could quite rightly say that at her scheduled shift ending time all ratios were covered. It's not her responsibility to look at other employees shift times, so as there were no problems she left. It's not her responsibility to check for management fuck ups and plan around them - that's on management. They could try and fire her for that but at any employment tribunal the management would be told it's on them.

The Agency will charge a higher fee to the Nursery if their staff have to do overtime. Therefore, OP will be expected to work only her contracted hours unless the overtime is agreed in advance with the Agency.

Of course but this is again a management problem! It wasn't on the other woman to know anything about or fix. I'm not saying OP should stay late, I'm saying her anger about being needed to it directed at the wrong people. She isn't being manipulated by anyone. They're all being manipulated by a shit manager/employer.

@FrippEnos

goawaystormy

You seem to be going out of your way to put the OP in the wrong.

I'm not saying OP's wrong for wanting to leave on time.

I'm saying she's wrong for directing her anger at the other staff who just want the exact same thing!

OP said herself she wouldn't put a stranger first (fair) but why does she expect 4:30 woman to put her first?

Op's right to have anger, she's wrong for directing it at the other staff who only want the same as she does, rather than the shit management causing the problem in the first place. And I think it's incredibly unfair that other posters on here are calling the 4:30 woman awful names so I'm pointing out that her and OP are in the exact same situation!

goawaystormy

I see what you are saying, I apologise.

But although they are similar situation the OP is agency and much more expensive.

But it seems like the regular worker was trying it on.

Yes this was for the employed staff to manage and it sounds like they were trying to be sneaky about it. Someone would have been 'in charge' while on site. It won't be OP as she is agency so one of the other staff members will have known that someone would be doing overtime. It was not for OP to manage that and well done for pulling them up on it.

Sounds like an awful place to work OP hope you can find somewhere better!

So you've worked there for 8 days and you haven't either rung your agency, or spoken personally to the nursery manager? Why not? That's the only way to clarify this and get past playing chicken with the other staff.

You are employed by the agency.

You need to go through them.

The manager needs to sort her staffing out.