AIBU to ask this at an interview?

[FriendshipsAreHardForMe]

I have an interview coming up for a full time position (37hrs).

I'd ideally like to work part-time but was finding the right opportunity hard to come by so decided to apply to some full-time positions in hopes to negotiate down.

Anyway.... In terms of asking them if they'd consider me working part time...

Am I being unreasonable to not say anything about hours until I receive a job offer (if I do of course)? So as not to put them off too quickly. But maybe they'd be annoyed I've potentially wasted their time.

YANBU - wait until job offer to ask for P/T
YABU - mention P/T hours at the interview

Thanks 😊

In all fairness you have no understanding of my area of work or what the workload looks like so I think it's very short sighted to dismiss a "notion of workload and x hours"

No, you’re right, I should have caveated that as not being applicable in all cases, particularly those where external factors mean individual productivity has less impact on how long a task takes to get done, or where physical presence is necessary for set hours. I meant to.

Apologies.

Of course there are people working part-time but unfortunately the reality in the 'real world' of work is that most of those jobs are either low paid NMW type jobs like teaching assistant, care work, retail and admin with little to no prospects or they are jobs where the employee is a valued member of staff with skills and experience that is of value to the employer. Don't take my word for it, search the employment boards on Mumsnet.

I'm not telling you not to interview for these jobs. I'm telling you to sound the position out for part-time BEFORE you go through the interview process. Why bother wasting hours of your own time and run the risk of pissing the employer off? Is your time not valuable to you?

Yes, people like your brother are headhunted but I assume he has skills and experience that make him valuable to an employer. DH works in an emerging technology that is very short on candidates. He is regularly contacted about jobs and I imagine he could negotiate hours and salary at the end but he is the exception not the rule. You said this is a change of direction for you so it is possible that you are not going to be the most desirable candidate who can dictate your own terms at the end of the process.

I'm not saying any of this for the fun of it. I've worked full time, 3 days, 4 days and flexi hours over the years. When I've worked part-time it's been when I've applied for a part-time role or been working a fixed term contract where I have proved myself and they want me to say and I have asked as part of the process. I have enquired about the possibility for part-time when I've seen a full-time role and NEVER EVER HAD SUCCESS because need someone full time. The only exception was a full time job where I enquired if they would consider four days before I submitted my application. They said yes so I submitted my application with a covering letter to say I was looking for four days. I go along to interview, discuss the hours and they tell me no, they're want someone full time.

Yes, I'm sure you have a lot to offer as do many women, but the reality of the situation is that many employers want full time staff. I'm not saying this is right but you would be better off looking to employers who employ large numbers of women on part-time contracts (i.e. NHS, local government, etc.) otherwise expect to be frustrated.

@JassyRadlett

Some really weird notions on this thread - such as ‘a workload’ taking a set x hours, without any reflection on the skill/productivity of the person carrying out the work and how quickly they can get it done.

As an employer, flexibility is a great draw for good candidates. I have several on my team who I probably wouldn’t have if I’d insisted on standard FT in the office hours, but who are highly skilled and productive and have a greater impact in, say, 4 days than some of their peers do in 5. The staff members massively value the flexibility- I’ve no doubt they could be earning significantly more at a more senior level in a more old-fashioned, inflexible workplace but they value the flexibility over the money, and I and my company get the benefit.

It also frees up a little bit of budget and headcount to give me more flexibility elsewhere - eg to enable a 1.2 FTE jobshare.

Recruitment is a two-way process. You’re interviewing them as much as they’re interviewing you (though you’d have a hard time convincing some of them of that; they’ll be convinced their doing you a favour by deigning to interview you.) Overall, supply of labour is currently significantly constrained - I’m very aware that the people I’m interviewing are in demand and I need to make our workplace attractive to them - rethinking jobs and how they can be done, ways of working, location, salary, culture, right down to the quality of IT kit.

Thank you Jassy, it's reassuring that others think similarly.

Can I ask how you'd suggest I approach this? Lots are saying at interview which I totally see why.

My only hesitation is I'm open to FT if thats all that on offer and I don't want to put them off me before an offer is made (make them think I may jump ship if a PT job becomes available). And if it puts them off, I'd also like to know if that was the reason or not.

I’ve recruited a far bit and if someone sprung on me after offer that they were only looking for part time I’d feel annoyed and that they’d wasted my time

It’s a conversation for up front. If a strong candidate said that’s what they were looking for, then if I could accommodate it I’d still interview. I’d appreciate them being up front.

I know it’s tough, but if they can’t accommodate part time it would be a waste to progress things.

But I think stick to your guns - the more good candidates negotiate for pt hours the less horrified some of these hiring managers will be, and change will inevitably follow. Especially when some firms are already open to pt and flexible working. It’s just always going to be an uphill battle for individuals to change a structural issue.

But that's the point. My organisation is already very open to pt and flexible working. It is most definitely not a 9-5 in the office type of culture - quite the contrary. However, it is precisely because we are open to different ways of working that we would consider flexibility when scoping the job and state the options when advertising it. And that is why I would find it frustrating if someone went through the entire selection process, in which we invest a lot of time, taking up the slot of another potentially employable candidate, only to tell me at the end of the process that they can't actually meet the essential requirements of the role.

Maybe this strategy would work in an organisation which has no real track record of working flexibly, where the assumption is simply that all jobs are advertised as full time. I have never worked anywhere like that. In my organisation, and in others where I have worked previously, it would be seen as a red flag.

To be clear, I would have no issue with candidates asking at the beginning of the process, as I wouldn't expect them to know what our working culture is like. Asking at the end of the process is taking the piss. Negotiating terms is one thing. Asking for the job to be completely redesigned is another.

I think I’d be very clear in the interview that you’d be looking for flexibility around hours. Frame it like that.

I’ve done that when I’ve been job hunting and it weeds out employers who won’t be flexible. As someone else posted, interview is a 2 way process and you’re interviewing them too. You need to know they’re a good fit and for me an inflexible employer wouldn’t be.

If you're genuinely open to full time, OP, then that is a bit different. I would make it clear when you ask that you are still open to this, in order to avoid pissing them off. Asking if they would consider pt is a bit different from saying that you aren't available to do the job as advertised, and I think this is OK.

@BlinkingBananas

Of course there are people working part-time but unfortunately the reality in the 'real world' of work is that most of those jobs are either low paid NMW type jobs like teaching assistant, care work, retail and admin with little to no prospects or they are jobs where the employee is a valued member of staff with skills and experience that is of value to the employer. Don't take my word for it, search the employment boards on Mumsnet.

I'm not telling you not to interview for these jobs. I'm telling you to sound the position out for part-time BEFORE you go through the interview process. Why bother wasting hours of your own time and run the risk of pissing the employer off? Is your time not valuable to you?

Yes, people like your brother are headhunted but I assume he has skills and experience that make him valuable to an employer. DH works in an emerging technology that is very short on candidates. He is regularly contacted about jobs and I imagine he could negotiate hours and salary at the end but he is the exception not the rule. You said this is a change of direction for you so it is possible that you are not going to be the most desirable candidate who can dictate your own terms at the end of the process.

I'm not saying any of this for the fun of it. I've worked full time, 3 days, 4 days and flexi hours over the years. When I've worked part-time it's been when I've applied for a part-time role or been working a fixed term contract where I have proved myself and they want me to say and I have asked as part of the process. I have enquired about the possibility for part-time when I've seen a full-time role and NEVER EVER HAD SUCCESS because need someone full time. The only exception was a full time job where I enquired if they would consider four days before I submitted my application. They said yes so I submitted my application with a covering letter to say I was looking for four days. I go along to interview, discuss the hours and they tell me no, they're want someone full time.

Yes, I'm sure you have a lot to offer as do many women, but the reality of the situation is that many employers want full time staff. I'm not saying this is right but you would be better off looking to employers who employ large numbers of women on part-time contracts (i.e. NHS, local government, etc.) otherwise expect to be frustrated.

I just don't buy what you're saying.

If I tell them before interview I won't get an interview. I won't get a chance to show them my strengths or explain how I could see PT working. I'll likely be written off immediately.

I'm aware more PT jobs are low skilled or low paid. That's exactly why I'm going for FT jobs, because I had a decent career prechildren.

I did actually have success a few months back. I went for a FT job, asked for 4 days at interview and was called later to say I'd have been offered it except the job was no longer available. Which was incredibly frustrating as finding PT roles is like finding a needle in a haystack. But I only mentioned it at interview because we were specifically talking about hours and id have had to lie to avoid it. Which of course I wouldn't do as it would be an awful way to start a job given I'd have had to ask afterwards anyway. I had intended not it mention hours.

It's not nice to admit, but there's a lot of bias against women in the workplace. And a strong culture of people linking hours with productivity which is just untrue. And it's damaging for everyone when women are excluded from the workplace.

OP are you going through an agency or applying directly? (Sorry if this has already been answered)

As @BillMasen has said it would be wise to ask about flexibility rather than straight away mention PT hours.

I made this mistake applying a few years ago. My job at that time let me do compressed hours 4 days a week. The new employers offered me the role but when I asked about flexibility they said "no because if we let you do it everyone will want to". I turned it down but wish I had asked earlier as it was a total waste of time.

I heard recently that they told all their staff during lockdown that they could work from home but only if they bought their own laptop

@AlexaShutUp

But I think stick to your guns - the more good candidates negotiate for pt hours the less horrified some of these hiring managers will be, and change will inevitably follow. Especially when some firms are already open to pt and flexible working. It’s just always going to be an uphill battle for individuals to change a structural issue.

But that's the point. My organisation is already very open to pt and flexible working. It is most definitely not a 9-5 in the office type of culture - quite the contrary. However, it is precisely because we are open to different ways of working that we would consider flexibility when scoping the job and state the options when advertising it. And that is why I would find it frustrating if someone went through the entire selection process, in which we invest a lot of time, taking up the slot of another potentially employable candidate, only to tell me at the end of the process that they can't actually meet the essential requirements of the role.

Maybe this strategy would work in an organisation which has no real track record of working flexibly, where the assumption is simply that all jobs are advertised as full time. I have never worked anywhere like that. In my organisation, and in others where I have worked previously, it would be seen as a red flag.

To be clear, I would have no issue with candidates asking at the beginning of the process, as I wouldn't expect them to know what our working culture is like. Asking at the end of the process is taking the piss. Negotiating terms is one thing. Asking for the job to be completely redesigned is another.

Lots of large firms ONLY advertise FT jobs. That can't mean every single job HAS to be worked 37 hours surely. Rather it's an HR/cultural thing.

I think it's naive to think every workplace puts a lot of thought into job adverts.

Although I agree with people saying perhaps these are the firms to avoid if they refuse flexibility...

@SpookyScarySkeletons

OP are you going through an agency or applying directly? (Sorry if this has already been answered)

As @BillMasen has said it would be wise to ask about flexibility rather than straight away mention PT hours.

I made this mistake applying a few years ago. My job at that time let me do compressed hours 4 days a week. The new employers offered me the role but when I asked about flexibility they said "no because if we let you do it everyone will want to". I turned it down but wish I had asked earlier as it was a total waste of time.

I heard recently that they told all their staff during lockdown that they could work from home but only if they bought their own laptop

Directly... So I feel there's no one to ask without being written off immediately...

Seriously Op, you asked a legitimate question but don't like the majority of the answers you are getting.

69% of people on this thread have voted YABU to mention part-time hours at interview.

You're defensive. You aren't interested in listening. You don't want to be transparent. I'm not surprised your having problems.

I know so many men who have asked for a higher salary and no one blinks.

A woman who wants to work 0.8 is chastised for "wasting time".

Why the fuck are you trying to make negotiating salary a 'men' thing?

Do you not negotiate salary when you apply for jobs? I know I certainly do and other women I've offered roles to absolutely do.

And in what way is negotiating salary in any way comparable to wanting a FT role to become PT?

Asking for more money doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the role the company is trying to fill. Telling them you want PT makes a massive difference to the role.

YANBU. If they can't be flexible then it's a good sign that you wouldn't want to work there anyway.

@spookyscaryskeletons

How did you find working compressed hours?

I work in HR. I don’t mind either way, we offer flexible working. I asked about flexible working when I was offered my role and I do. 4 days week compressed hours. We say flexible working requests can be made after 6 months but I started on a flexible pattern and many organisations will do the same. Think it’s ridiculous that some hirers would be ‘possessed’, this is life and we don’t live to work.

This thread started out as a question as to when you should raise the topic of part-time hours but has just turned into a rant about the lack of part-time jobs being advertised and the injustice of it all.

[quote FriendshipsAreHardForMe]@BlinkingBananas

Why should we suck it up when there are lots of examples of people working effectively in PT jobs?

It isn't all about budget. Yes, budgets are important but so is getting the right person.

An example, my brother was headhunted for a position. He managed to negotiate it (pre Covid) from London office based to WFH full time which was very rare back then. He also asked for a £5k pay increase and got it. He was presumably given it because, ALL things considered, he was best for the role.

Women have a lot to offer. I have a lot to offer.

Loads of companies NEVER offer PT, even though it may work really well. Some people just don't think of it. It's archaic.

PT can reduce sick leave rates, parental leave. PT workers often put in more than their contracts hours for less pay. Less pay = less pension contributions, less bonus if applicable etc.

So it isn't just about budget for a position. There are lots of things to think about.

And I've said many times that I'd still consider full time.

You seem hell bent on pushing the notion that is a huge waste of time even going for the interview, why? Did you feel forced into FT work? I'm just trying to understand why you wouldnt think someone should at least try.

And FWIW I would never call up before an interview and mention negotiating hours. In the same way no one would call and say "you're offering £30k, before I apply can I just check if you'd pay £35k? They'll say no 100% because they don't know you and don't know who else they'll get through the door.

Negotiations only work if someone's in demand which is why I think I'll wait until after the interview, if I'm successful.[/quote]
Go with your instinct and wait until offered

Leverage is required so they need to want you

If it’s not right so be it, you won’t be working there

I'm an HR manager and I would recommend bringing it up at interview. I recently recruited for a FT position and by happy coincidence, two of the best candidates both said at interview that they ideally would like PT job share. So, they both got the job on 0.5.
If they had waited until the offer was made then one would already have been filtered out and the other would have been rejected if they couldn't have done FT.
I find it hard to believe you've been a recruitment manager if you think screening, shortlisting, interviewing, and making a decision takes a max of 2 hrs per candidate.

@BlinkingBananas

Seriously Op, you asked a legitimate question but don't like the majority of the answers you are getting.

69% of people on this thread have voted YABU to mention part-time hours at interview.

You're defensive. You aren't interested in listening. You don't want to be transparent. I'm not surprised your having problems.

I'm not having problems, why would you assume that?

Yes, I challenge people's views but that's not to say I'm not hearing them.

But also - I asked WHEN to ask for PT hours; interview or at offer. Not IF I should ask which is what lots are essentially saying (that I shouldn't as FT adverts are only for FT worker).

I've asked a question, I doesn't mean I have to passively accept all views.

I've had a request for part time a couple of times when interviewing. On both occasions I gave them the job. In truth, if I'd have had an equally good candidate who could work full time I'd have given them the job instead.

@pangolina

I'm an HR manager and I would recommend bringing it up at interview. I recently recruited for a FT position and by happy coincidence, two of the best candidates both said at interview that they ideally would like PT job share. So, they both got the job on 0.5. If they had waited until the offer was made then one would already have been filtered out and the other would have been rejected if they couldn't have done FT. I find it hard to believe you've been a recruitment manager if you think screening, shortlisting, interviewing, and making a decision takes a max of 2 hrs per candidate.

I was recruiting for entry level jobs that weren't difficult to fill. Perhaps your sector/job roles are different.

That's good advice. I think I'll have to see how the interview goes.

But also - I asked WHEN to ask for PT hours; interview or at offer. Not IF I should ask which is what lots are essentially saying (that I shouldn't as FT adverts are only for FT worker).

In my organisation, ft adverts are indeed only for ft workers, because we always state upfront if flexibility is an option. However, I still think it's fine to ask about this, because you can't possibly know that we have already considered it. My point is that it's better to ask at the beginning of the process rather than further down the line - not that you shouldn't ask at all.

I've done just this, recently, but I phoned and asked before I applied. I asked whether there was any way that the role could be done over 4 days ie 80%, or whether business need was such that it had to be full time. The hiring manager was actually pleasantly surprised, he felt it could be done part time, but felt he wouldn't get the right candidate if he'd advertised it as part time - and was delighted as he could use the rest of the budget elsewhere.

So yes, I'd ask, but before you go for the interview.

@bertiebutton

I've done just this, recently, but I phoned and asked before I applied. I asked whether there was any way that the role could be done over 4 days ie 80%, or whether business need was such that it had to be full time. The hiring manager was actually pleasantly surprised, he felt it could be done part time, but felt he wouldn't get the right candidate if he'd advertised it as part time - and was delighted as he could use the rest of the budget elsewhere.

So yes, I'd ask, but before you go for the interview.

That's the way to do it in my view.

Years ago, before it had occurred to me to state clearly on the job descriptions what flexible options were available, I responded to several prospective applicants to say that we would consider part time or compressed hours. I have never agreed to this after interviewing someone, however!