To think the real salary should have been advertised?

[littlepieces]

I've just been through over four months of interviews, reference checks etc. for a public sector job. Yesterday HR called me to confirm details and casually dropped the bombshell that they're offering me a lower salary than was advertised. I was meant to qualify for a London salary uplift, as it's a London based role, but because the department is working remotely due to Covid that isn't happening now.

BUT, the department has been working remotely since the start of the pandemic, March 2020.

So why didn't they just advertise the remote salary? I would never have applied and wasted my time if they had. Without the uplift I'll be taking a pay cut. AIBU or would I be right to challenge this?

@Abigail12345654321

I would suggest sending an email to the recruitment manager involved, unemotionally outlining why you believe you deserve the higher salary. Just say that you understood the starting salary would be x and you feel that would be more appropriate because your currently earning x, you have x years experience of y, you have specialist skills x, y and z (or showing you meet or exceed the JD essential requirements) and that you would appreciate if they could consider appointing you on x salary.

Don’t be accusatory or emotional - just factual and calm.

Don't do this. You're not asking for special consideration on your merits (which they'll say no to), you're asking for the conditions of the job as advertised to be honoured.

Althpugh that said I dont think HR can arbitrarily add London allowance to a fully remote job - the real question (to me) is if they have flex yo adjust the base salary up.

The thing I’d want to point out in any discussions is that you expect you aren’t the only one who will challenge the salary, after all they did advertise it at £x. All candidates will have seen this, you in a particular can only accept that because the lower offer is actually a pay cut.

[quote littlepieces]@pingywingy It's the same job title and responsibility level in all locations but there will be slight differences in day to day tasks dependant on the project. If that makes sense.[/quote]
Yes, that makes sense. I was recruited through a bulk campaign on the same basis. Is that problematic for you/different to what was advertised? Sorry, just trying to work out what you meant by ‘I don’t think that’s fine’.

I would say that you shouldn’t let a bad HR experience colour your view of what the department will be like to work for. I don’t know anyone who hasn’t had an absolute nightmare in the process of being recruited into the civil service, and there are systemic problems with CS HR that make them nearly always difficult to deal with. Think of this as nothing more than an admin blip (which it is) - it won’t reflect the actual day to day of your job once you’re in at all - unless it’s an HR or payroll job obviously, which I’m assuming it isn’t!

No rudeness here @dguu6u? I've mentioned the location of the job was advertised as being in London, and advertised as being subject to a London salary uplift. Yes, I also happen to live in London. But if I'd applied for a role in Bristol of course I wouldn't be expecting a London salary uplift because I live London.

I’ve negotiated salary within the civil service, although just within the band offered. There is definitely flexibility, but you need to push for the highest salary before you start.

I also think you should push, in writing, for them to clarify whether the department’s current position is to remove the London weighting for remote/hybrid roles based in London. If so, that’s a big deal, not something they can just brush over in a conversation - it goes against Whitehall’s previous statements and continuous push to get civil servants back to the office and would hugely upset the unions.

That was me pointing out that that poster had been needlessly rude to you, OP.

Although just on that point - I live in Manchester and I absolutely did expect the London salary for my civil service job, because it was the salary that was advertised for the role that I applied for, and I got it. No factors re your personal circumstances - where you live, your merits as an employee - need to be considered other than that you’ve accepted a job on the basis of something they put in writing when they advertised the job.

Thanks for that @pingywingy. I was just really looking forward to starting. The team I'll be working within is industry leading and it will be a great career move. I felt lucky to have been offered the role. So this has come as a bit of a surprise to be honest. I'll have a chat with HR for sure. Like you say, I've been warned by a few people about how arduous the CS recruitment process is!

OP, I wonder if this role is with my current employer. People are leaving in droves and I would NOT take a job there. DM me if you want...

Has anyone here managed to negotiate more than base starting salary for a public sector role?

I did, but it was local government, not civil service, and it was 30 years ago, when money wasn't so tight in the private sector. They started me at the top of the scale for the job, then did a job evaluation that put the role up two grades.

You can definitely negotiate within a pay band. I’ve done it twice and been successful both times. Depends how much they want you, how much if a hassle re-recruiting will be and any problems it will create with other new recruits/ current team it will create for the hiring manager.
If these factors fall in your favour they can do it. If they don’t they won’t but no harm asking. I would

They may well offer to put you to the top point of whichever scale the job is on if you kick off, but then you get issues for salary progression as any real increase relies on a promotion to a higher scale.

@Abigail12345654321

I would suggest sending an email to the recruitment manager involved, unemotionally outlining why you believe you deserve the higher salary. Just say that you understood the starting salary would be x and you feel that would be more appropriate because your currently earning x, you have x years experience of y, you have specialist skills x, y and z (or showing you meet or exceed the JD essential requirements) and that you would appreciate if they could consider appointing you on x salary.

Don’t be accusatory or emotional - just factual and calm.

No, I wouldn't send an email outlining why I deserve the salary. It's not about that, imo. I would by all means, send an email saying politely and factually that the job was advertised at x salary, and I'm not at all happy with what I have now been told.

The fact is that the job was advertised at a salary that the candidate is entitled to expect to receive. OP, I know it's easy to be saying do this, that or the other, but honestly, I would definitely push back on this.

You wouldn't have gone through all of this, presumably for the now lower figure being quoted. Also as has been said, it's possible that it's HR trying to penny pinch. Or someone messed up, in the first place with the figure quoted on the advertisement.
Best of luck, OP, whatever you decide.

Definitely negotiate although the CS are difficult. I was promised a salary at interview and after and the night before I was told I wasn't getting it.

But you still have a job so you could walk away. Might you accept more leave instead of salary. Some get a contractual bonus!

In my experience employers will change things if they want you.

Oh an organisation did this to DH…

First the salary package was lower. DH had decided to accept a slight cut for the change but wasn’t happy.
The bonus that was promised yearly then changed from guaranteed to target led by people he’d got no control over and finally the company car package he was promised turned out to be a three year old focus the last person in the job left behind with the promise he could chose a new car from a huge list of four when it was up for renewal in 5 years.

This all came to light gradually over the course of a few weeks. Fortunately their HR department were spectacularly slow so nothing had been signed and he walked away.

They were still advertising a year later and still giving the wrong salary information etc with the job specs. I do wonder how many more people went down the same route and then withdrew.

I’m not an employment lawyer but how was the advert worded as I suspect this is key?

When recruiting for the NHS I’ve always been very careful to make sure advertised salaries explicitly say band X [range A - B] plus Y London weighting or high cost allowance.

If the advertised “salary” was just a number with no detail, I would have thought they have to honour it.

It would leave a rather sour taste in my mouth if the starting point for a new career was that my employer had mis-led me. It's a trust issue that would affect every interaction I had with them.

I suggest writing to them politely explaining that you applied on the basis of the salary advertised, and that you would not have applied if you had known the salary would be lower. So implying that you may not take the job. Copy in the hiring manager who may have some influence. There is almost always some room for manouvre.

@Pugroll

The uplift isn't just for commuting costs, it's for general cost of living right? Unfortunately I'm stuck in London for a while, by circumstance, which is why I applied for a London job. I still have London area housing costs

I think this is one of the main issues with London weighting and its fair application. Someone who commutes to London but lives in a cheaper part of the country will have been substantially better off whilst working from home and enjoying cheaper cost of living and no commuting costs than their colleagues still paying the same London prices for rent etc. I think it's an aspect of wfh long term that doesn't really have a satisfactory solution all round.

It is technically possible to start above the bottom of the grade, but it's not the norm and has to be a lot of justification for doing so.

There are all sorts of unfairnesses with LW. I live in an expensive part of the SE, where rents and house prices are higher than the cheaper parts of outer London.

Public sector salaries are considerably lower though, and it causes recruitment issues for some jobs, particularly emergency services, where their shift patterns mean that their travel costs aren't as high as they would be for someone doing 9-5.

@Plexie

It's possible their policy re London Weighting changed after the advert was placed, if that was months ago. Although in that case it was unprofessional of them not to mention it earlier, and indeed a poor decision to apply it retrospectively to vacancies already being recruited.

How big an organisation are they? Public sector is usually heavily unionised and I'd be surprised if they had got this past the unions easily.

Ask them what the policy is - it should say when it was introduced, whether it applies only to new starters, whether LW will be reinstated when people return to working onsite and whether there's a difference between people living in/outside London in the event of hybrid working - will they weasel out of paying LW to people who live outside London by saying their main base is their home? If the latter, that's a warning that they're a shit employer.

This^

I don’t know what part of the public sector isn’t unionised with national negotiation. I haven’t seen any concern coming out from unison or unite. Daft move as the public sector isn’t in a position to piss off staff or recruits.

What sector is this?

Not ok.

They’ll try it on any way they can.

Push back and ignore their irrelevant arguments. You’re being asked to work in London, you get London weighting or you dump swiftly and move on.

8k is worth dumping them for.

I have to say I really think @Dguu6u your tone is uncalled for. She applied for a London role which was advertised at a certain rate. There really isn’t any need for the way you responded. What does it add to the thread other than making you feel superior (and failing I might add)

If you're in London, look for a different job in the private sector, you'll likely be paid loads more. Over Xmas we met up with my DHs family, all working in London in various professional fields. His cousin is a Civil Servant, she was debating leaving the CS, but worried she'd be on worse T&C in the private sector. Every single person there who works in the private sector had comparable T&Cs, it's a bit of a myth that the CS is so much better. And they get paid more than she does, a lot more. I'd be leaving the public sector now too if my role wasn't very niche, but I'm working on updating my skill set so I can leave too. The public sector is a sinking ship, for most CS roles, the same skills can get you a whole load more cash in the private sector in London.

Congratulations on being offered the job. It sounds as though you are highly competent and even if you decline the role, you’ve gained invaluable experience, which you’ll take forward for the selection process for your next career move. Good luck with your discussion.