How do we decide 'social class'?

[badspella]

I have been reading one or two threads about 'social class', and it reminded me that I am really confused about the whole notion of social classification (the labels we use, rather than stratification itself).

For example, I know a family who are farmers. They own a good few acres of prime land, and live in a large listed house. However, the house is falling to pieces (holes in the roof, rotten floorboards and so on) and the grandfather left school before receiving any formal qualifications. The son (who now farms the land) completed secondary education. All the family speak with a strong regional accent. The farm is worth well over £1 million.

What class are they?

Then, there is one of my friends who has a masters degree and PhD, is a university lecturer. She was brought up in a large detached house, but, she lives in a rented council house.

What class is she?

I must state that I do not spend my time trying to fit people into little boxes, but I do wonder how 'class' is 'decided', especially when contexts are so complex.

as a non-native, there are so many things that I still don't get. What's the big deal about cheese and olives? They posh? There's plenty in Lidl. And what is this about Guardian vs Daily Mail? They're both trash.

I think how we determine social class is changing now as previously well regarded jobs no longer pay enough for one to live a middle class lifestyle.
One that immediately came to mind is teaching. The low pay means teachers are often living in rented properties whereas traditionally they'd have been home owners in affluent areas.

Also, there are people who we can't really put in clear cut boxes. Footballers, influencers, popstars - often from very working class backgrounds but with a large income which means they can afford to live a more middle class lifestyle - like having a big posh house, sending their children to private school, etc.

A lot of us don't really fit in those clearly defined boxes anymore.

I come from a working class background but have strong middle class values and a high level of education. But I'm still skint and have a regional accent. If I had to pick a box, I'd have to pick working class. But I don't really fit in with people where I grew up anymore. I also don't really fit in with middle class people either.

I've found accent is usually a useful indicator. Ij my purely personal anecdotal experience, live in the north west and people with a strong regional accent are usually working class. Posh accent definitely middle. Faint regional accent could be either.

isn’t it more about values than wealth ?

My dad is entrenched working class (manual factory job, zero hours, no property). He is very much interested in class - he's a bright man kept in his place by the 11+ system, as was my DM. He has no aspirations to social climbing but he sees the system for what it is.

@coochyboochy

I've found accent is usually a useful indicator. Ij my purely personal anecdotal experience, live in the north west and people with a strong regional accent are usually working class. Posh accent definitely middle. Faint regional accent could be either.

I would agree. Speaking of my dad again, he has one of the strongest accents I know (sounds a bit like a pirate 😆). I wasn't held back by the 11+, my DM came from elsewhere so I have only a mild accent. I also earn double what my dad does.

If accent has a lot to do with it what of Russian oligarchs.

That said, Mumsnet I think is the only place where class is a huge issue. I mean if MN HQ were to do a wrap up of threads 2021 or even threads in general the discussion of class would be in the top 5. I find the obsession with it so peculiar.

English accents in north west England - maybe my post wasn't clear enough. I can't comment on other nationalities or even areas of England.

Should say *other areas of England. I can't type today!

I always thought historically our class was based on your occupation and family more than what you owned till you get to upper class and titled.

Working class
Middle Class
Upper Class and Titled
Royalty.

Working class tend to be manual jobs or low paying.

Middle required a professional qualification or Management/Ownership of a business. Teachers, dentistry.

Upper was lord lady and wealth came from capital assets and not working

Royal explains itself.

Though it's far more fluid in the modern day I suppose which is why it no longer works and the media have just divided us by rich and poor.

I think in Ireland there is a sort of classification of people but it wouldn't be so much "working", "middle" and "upper", as whether or not some one is "rough" or from a "rough area", and even then, people don't seem to care about it so much so long as the person is sound and not "ignorant" nor behaves in an anti-social way nor is a criminal!

In Irish (although lived in London for a while) and while I kind of agree with the above I still believe there is a subtle class system in place. There might not be an aristocracy but there is most definitely an elite establishment class in Ireland. Have a look at who is in the big private hospitality marquees at the Galway or Leopardstown races. You can bet top dollar that the parents in the D4 Georgian house will still disapprove of their BlackRock and Trinity educated son dating the girl working at SuperValue. That Limerick based solicitor is unlikely to be best mates with the feller who runs the caravan park in Kilkee. Etc.

I agree with you @DillonPanthersTexas

I went to a private school in South Dublin which has been mentioned in Ross O'Carroll-Kelly books! and my class mates include a barrister, an author, even an actor. They were all very pleasant to me at the reunion but I'm out of their loop now. Neither my house nor its location would quite cut it. Although a genuine connection would trump this.

Now I'm a single parent with a very ordinary job, and even at work, despite my middle class start in life, piano lessons, Italian exchanges and ballet lessons, I am just a middle-aged single adult feeling a bit low status Jane Austen style, despite knowing that I'm ''middle-class''. I'm not boo-hooing, just observing!

I guess I have no social capital? Without a husband, I fall back down the board? Snakes and ladders style!

Class exists and there is an Establishment that I could have stumbled in to but I never made it in! Perhaps my daughter with her local accent will. Despite the accent I would have loved her to have tried to disguise a little, she got in to a good course at Trinity! So although she went to a state school and has an accent that makes her grandparents pour a bit more gin in to their tonic, she did what I couldn't do.

Class exists here for sure but I think it's like a cross between the UK and the USA here.

Money, youth, confidence, looks, walking the walk, they're all key here.

A nice middle-class accent opens some doors but it also closes some.

But it's not quite like the USA here either because accent still gives away a lot and saying ''I should have went '' will hurt some people's ears.

I could have expressed this better but social capital is the new class system imo and what matters now, class is real in Ireland and does exist, but it's just one aspect of social capital. Which also includes intelligence. Not just qualifications. Intelligence, dynamism, effort, youth, confidence, looks....... If you have all of that, it'd take some snob to close a door in your face.

@UserBot99

I could have expressed this better but social capital is the new class system imo and what matters now, class is real in Ireland and does exist, but it's just one aspect of social capital. Which also includes intelligence. Not just qualifications. Intelligence, dynamism, effort, youth, confidence, looks....... If you have all of that, it'd take some snob to close a door in your face.

I think this summary is good and concise, though also neglects to consider the impact of race and culture in class and social standing. I know plenty of people to whom all those adjectives would apply - but doors do regularly close in their faces because they are black and / or not UK born.

To this end, class is very much a white preoccupation: people of colour know full well that their status and the way they’re perceived by others will always be impeded by their skin colour and cultural background. Class is an inherently racist model of ascribing value and position to people.

I thought nowadays working class and middle class was a less relevant to modern Britain. I feel like I'm probably working class as I need to work to live but then whatdoes it take to count as middle class? In the new 7 class system I was an emergent service worker back in those days but I'm a homeowner now so maybe I've gone up!

Your farmer friends are impoverished landed gentry

@CatsArePeople

as a non-native, there are so many things that I still don't get. What's the big deal about cheese and olives? They posh? There's plenty in Lidl. And what is this about Guardian vs Daily Mail? They're both trash.

I love your username but you’re not making sense. You cannot say The Guardian is “trash”.

You cannot say The Guardian is “trash”.

While 'trash' maybe a strong description they have sadly fallen in quality over the years. They are still capable of some top notch journalism when they can be bothered but sadly they often come across as student protest rag, and often a hypocritical one at that.

To this end, class is very much a white preoccupation: people of colour know full well that their status and the way they’re perceived by others will always be impeded by their skin colour and cultural background. Class is an inherently racist model of ascribing value and position to people.

Guess you have never lived or worked in Nigeria then.

@DillonPanthersTexas

To this end, class is very much a white preoccupation: people of colour know full well that their status and the way they’re perceived by others will always be impeded by their skin colour and cultural background. Class is an inherently racist model of ascribing value and position to people.

Guess you have never lived or worked in Nigeria then.

This thread is about the English class system. Nigeria, as every other country, will have its own way of identifying social status and standing, but it isn’t relevant to this thread.

This thread is about the English class system. Nigeria, as every other country, will have its own way of identifying social status and standing, but it isn’t relevant to this thread.

Well other countries class systems (or lack of) have been discussed on here so far so not sure why you feel the need to shut debate down. Anyway, migrants to the UK don't just park their own prejudices at the border, they end up being fed into the general pecking order of the wider community class system.

@Magnited

Working Class - you and your ancestors had to work to live.

Middle Class - you use other people to provide your means of living. You can move down but not up.

Upper Class - your distant ancestors killed other people to amass capital so that neither you nor your more recent ancestors had to work for a living.

The way you describe this makes me glad I'm working class

@DillonPanthersTexas

This thread is about the English class system. Nigeria, as every other country, will have its own way of identifying social status and standing, but it isn’t relevant to this thread.

Well other countries class systems (or lack of) have been discussed on here so far so not sure why you feel the need to shut debate down. Anyway, migrants to the UK don't just park their own prejudices at the border, they end up being fed into the general pecking order of the wider community class system.

Totally agree DillonPanthersTexas. Having lived in a few ex colonial territories I can vouch that the English class system is quite infectious. It just has far more grades in England and people are more likely to sniff at you if you don't have a boat in Salcombe whereas in other countries it tends to be more blunt - do you speak well, have money, go to a decent school

You can be intelligent, eloquent and educated and still be working class and have a strong regional accent. They're not mutually exclusive. You can also be proudly working class (which I am) and have a desire to progress in your career (which I have). I also do not aspire to be middle class and would staunchly reject ever being classified as middle class. It can be deeply ingrained and cultural too. It's definitely how people identify themselves as well as how people judge you.

It's true that migrants to new countries don't park their old prejudices. It does seem amazing to me that you would emigrate somewhere new and experience being looked down on at times or disadvantaged to some degree and then look down on somebody who was perceived to be slightly below you in the pecking order back in your home country! So you're on the receiving end of the same shit you're dishing out I have seen it happen though. I work with an Indian girl (born in Delhi) and there is another woman from not too far from where she grew up and my friend is upset that this woman just blanks her. Same woman does not blank me. So it made me think ''what a b1tch''.