How do we decide 'social class'?

[badspella]

I have been reading one or two threads about 'social class', and it reminded me that I am really confused about the whole notion of social classification (the labels we use, rather than stratification itself).

For example, I know a family who are farmers. They own a good few acres of prime land, and live in a large listed house. However, the house is falling to pieces (holes in the roof, rotten floorboards and so on) and the grandfather left school before receiving any formal qualifications. The son (who now farms the land) completed secondary education. All the family speak with a strong regional accent. The farm is worth well over £1 million.

What class are they?

Then, there is one of my friends who has a masters degree and PhD, is a university lecturer. She was brought up in a large detached house, but, she lives in a rented council house.

What class is she?

I must state that I do not spend my time trying to fit people into little boxes, but I do wonder how 'class' is 'decided', especially when contexts are so complex.

@Malariahilaria

Read 'Watching the English' by Kate Fox. Very funny and explains it all perfectly. Essentially you're only upper class if you're really upper class, you know if you're working class and mostly proud of it, everyone else is middle class but some people want to be seen as more superior to others and tie themselves in knots buying the 'right' things and saying the 'right words'.

I grew up abroad so was totally confused when I got here at 18. I didn't realise that at first meeting people were asking certain questions to rank me. Now I see who's doing it and who can bugger off quite frankly 😊

Brilliant book! And good summary of class.

@MintJulia

For me, real class is a mix of good manners, value placed on education, tolerance and the ability to get on with almost anyone.

Some people obviously have a headstart depending on their family history but anyone can achieve it.

Definitely this. The British class system is not what it once was. It's no longer based purely on earnings and profession.

'Where I live, farmers are at the top of the pecking order in terms of wealth. Everything goes through the business. Weddings are nearly always follows by a charity function for that purpose, for example.'

Yes, this was part of the old rural hierarchy. There was the aristocracy (usually the people who lived in the Hall or big house, and who owned the estate that was rented out to tenant farmers). Then there were the landowning farmers, who would employ farm labourers (and members of their own families), after that came the tenant farmers and finally the farm labourers. There was also an itinerant casual workforce.

The trades people and artisans such as the blacksmith (who later became the garage owner), the publican, the carpenter, butcher etc all came somewhere between skilled working and middle class, the doctor was definitely middle class and when teaching became professionalised, teachers also joined the MC. The vicar was usually related to the aristocracy.

It sounds like a system that died out years ago, but it is one I can recall in the small village where I grew up.

I think working class was once defined as receiving a wage, ie weekly pay based on hours worked. The middle class still worked but received a salary, paid monthly and was based on a contract of x hours a week with holiday pay.

It's all well and good rejecting the class system in the UK, but it's part of our culture, however daft it is. The thing to do is not take it to heart or define yourself by it and just see it as a quirk of this country.

Gosh this is a depressing topic. Another way for self depreciation. I hate labels.

I think this is one reason why the UK could never become a republic. Because it's so obsessed with class order that they delight in the existence of the ruling class. Subjugation is a sort of national kink.

I live in London and am an academic. I feel that in some ways I should be middle class - parents also academics and have a lovely lovely three bed house in the centre. However, my wages are really low in comparison to all the other professions so I actually have no idea. A secretary could easily earn 60-70k in the city as would a senior lecturer. I would absolutely think of a senior lecturer as middle class - secretary perhaps less so but they would be on a higher wage than me.

I think that in London - class has now been replaced by hard cash, you either have it and can live a reasonably ok life or you dont. And how you've made that cash is not really all that relevant. So say professionals dont exactly look down on me - but they absolutely do laugh at the fact that we used the free 30hrs for our nursery because both my parents and i work in a university (we were absolutely the only couple we knew who were entitled to it). They look down on my husband because he is not on six figure sums despite being male and his three degrees etc.

@girlmom21

People don't care about class anymore.

Oh they do! Even if they tell you they don't.

It's as much an approach to life as it is to do with job or income.

@badspella

'Where I live, farmers are at the top of the pecking order in terms of wealth. Everything goes through the business. Weddings are nearly always follows by a charity function for that purpose, for example.'

Yes, this was part of the old rural hierarchy. There was the aristocracy (usually the people who lived in the Hall or big house, and who owned the estate that was rented out to tenant farmers). Then there were the landowning farmers, who would employ farm labourers (and members of their own families), after that came the tenant farmers and finally the farm labourers. There was also an itinerant casual workforce.

The trades people and artisans such as the blacksmith (who later became the garage owner), the publican, the carpenter, butcher etc all came somewhere between skilled working and middle class, the doctor was definitely middle class and when teaching became professionalised, teachers also joined the MC. The vicar was usually related to the aristocracy.

It sounds like a system that died out years ago, but it is one I can recall in the small village where I grew up.

There are still hundreds of estates in the UK like this.

The Assured Shorthold Tenancy Act in 1988 was a major game changer though. It takes time to work through, but gradually the rural estate heirarchy is being replaced.

@magnited, Yes, indeed! When we think of class, we tend to forget that there is still a (minority) of people who are born into great prestige and privilege, sometimes on the basis of what a fossilised ancestor did at the time of the Norman Conquest. On the other hand, there are people who will find it really hard to break out of cycles of deprivation.

This is one reason why the whole debate about 'class' is (at one level) much more than a trivial topic of conversation.

No idea what class I am. It all seems so weird to me.

If you have a look at say the parallel threads running about chocolate. it's essentially about cash not class. Do you think it's worth (i.e. can you afford to) spend 20-30 quid on 8 little chocolates. if you can - you are apparently middle class - if not, then you're working class. There has been a general impoverishment of the middle classes in the UK and US over the last twenty years. Most people will not have the cash to spend that much money on such little chocolate. I generally wouldnt get poor quality chocolate so rarely eat it now.

There is also the difference in what you think is worth it - 30 quid for some chocolate v 50 quid for a theatre ticket for a three year old. Now whilst I absolutely wouldnt spend 30 quid on chocolate for no reason - I would definitely spend 50 quid on theatre. Does that make me more or less middle class.

@UserBot99

Accent....?

Not everybody has a very clear class. People can leave tribes, reject tribes, change tribes swim against the grain.
I question that education is 'a high class' trait or that laziness is high class trait.
A million pound house is normal in a city.

As a foreigner, I was perceived to have gone down a class in london which made me realise how ridiculous it is as part of an identity. I decided to consider myself exempt from classification from then on. What other people think of me is none of my business.
I want to work on my values etc

I totally agree with you

For example, I know a family who are farmers. They own a good few acres of prime land, and live in a large listed house. However, the house is falling to pieces (holes in the roof, rotten floorboards and so on) and the grandfather left school before receiving any formal qualifications. The son (who now farms the land) completed secondary education. All the family speak with a strong regional accent. The farm is worth well over £1 million. That's my dad you're talking about. You're extremely rude.

I think it's an interesting question.

Class is a concept that has and will continue to evolve over time.

Being a concept (as opposed to a real, tangible thing), everyone applies their own class markers (wealth, behaviour, job title). Of course, often these will conflict with each other.

Unfortunately this means that there isn't one 'true' answer to which class your friends are in, OP. Various official bodies and individuals have always and will always seek to establish class boundaries for their own purposes (nefarious or simply academic) but these will always shift.

Still interesting to hear people's opinions, though. I certainly don't agree with those who try to shut down the discussion with comments like 'omg why do u care, class doesn't matter, get on with ur life' as if that somehow marks them as particularly intelligent and open minded. It unfortunately does matter - just because something isn't 'real' doesn't mean it doesn't (consciously or subconsciously) affect how people think of themselves and others and subsequently choose to live out their lives. Categorisations like class can be harmful but they can also be an extremely useful (albeit limited) tool for understanding the mechanics of society.

Historically if was;

Upper class- titled, inherit wealth that they can live off.

Middle class- no title, able to live off investments.

Working class- have to sell their labour to get money to live.

Very basic Marx analysis though, now made.obsolete that most in all 3 classes have to work.

I agree its too complicated now. Unless you are elite or 'council housed and violent' it all becomes a mish mash in the middle.

@Fairyliz

I don’t know because this is something I’ve only ever read about on MN where people seem obsessed with class. In real life I have never had a discussion about someone’s class and I’m in my 60’s.

Same here... I too am in my mid-60's and have never had a discussion about class

The UK is moving ever closer to the US which basically has the rich and the poor. It's not that hard to figure out which one you are.

YABU. What does it matter?

Op it's over.

I think class is a totally separate thing to money or wealth. I grew up on a council estate in Glasgow and my mother always taught me that ' we may be poor but we are not common'. Some of the richest people out there are very common and some of the poorest people have proper class.

I think economic status is a more relevant marker making policy (how much income you have basically).

The money you have, or don't, is key explanatory variable for so many other domains of life.

YABVU

@derxa :) it's not your Dad.