How do we decide 'social class'?

[badspella]

I have been reading one or two threads about 'social class', and it reminded me that I am really confused about the whole notion of social classification (the labels we use, rather than stratification itself).

For example, I know a family who are farmers. They own a good few acres of prime land, and live in a large listed house. However, the house is falling to pieces (holes in the roof, rotten floorboards and so on) and the grandfather left school before receiving any formal qualifications. The son (who now farms the land) completed secondary education. All the family speak with a strong regional accent. The farm is worth well over £1 million.

What class are they?

Then, there is one of my friends who has a masters degree and PhD, is a university lecturer. She was brought up in a large detached house, but, she lives in a rented council house.

What class is she?

I must state that I do not spend my time trying to fit people into little boxes, but I do wonder how 'class' is 'decided', especially when contexts are so complex.

There is definitely a class system at the top when it comes to new money.

Look at the things Prince William's friends said about Kate's parents who made a fortune on their own rather than getting it due to an ancestor being friendly with a royal.

I don't think it is over. There is evidence of the old hierarchy all around us. However, it is changing.

Working class has got nothing to do with needing to work to live.

If that was the signifier, then that would cover the entire population apart from retired and the royals.

Another class obsessed thread

It’s quite worrying that people obsess over it so much. Live your life.

But what is the point of analysing it: unless you are monetising it some way!

Otherwise take up studying philosophy is my advice.

Whoever said only MC obsess over it are wrong, people thankfully of all creeds find it incredibly tedious to read people tying themselves in knots to try figure out where each human lies in the ‘pecking order’. It says a lot about them.

Class is determined by a mixed bag of attributes, including but not all, education, professional qualifications and subsequent career choices, hobbies and pastimes pursued, spoken English and accent, aspirations for children, what part of town you live in, holiday choices, who you choose to socialise with etc. Wealth is not necessarily an indicator of class, you can be asset poor but middle/upper class.

@MindTheChristmasGap

But what is the point of analysing it: unless you are monetising it some way!

For some people, the concept of class is an opportunity to look up to some people and look down on others.

The Frost Report captured it perfectly in their John Cleese / Ronnie Barker / Ronnie Corbett sketch.

@topcat2014

Which is why Marx hierarchy is now obsolete.

It's all about the intersectionality now.

@FinallyHere

That is it in a nutshell. And as PP mentioned, the questions British people ask when they’re getting to know you, is actually more about ranking you.

Some hilarious suggestions on here. I am middle class and always have been, so I don't care at all how I am perceived. Only my lower middle class mother in law spends any time cultivating class markers.

It's a load of shit . It's just a way to look down on people .

I don't think this interest is just about judging and categorising others. My family are clearly working class by background by my parents were very pro education and I have a degree and a professional job. I consider myself very middle class now but spanning those two cultures is interesting and sometimes uncomfortable. The middle class assumptions are not ones I make and often when people are entrenched in the middle classes they don't even see that they are making assumptions, they just think they are doing things the right way. Examples - looking down on people who use dummies, get their kids ears pierced before 10, assume their kids will go to university, assume that they will sit and do their kids homework with them, assume that children must have their own bedrooms. Society is more fluid now so it's not as rigid as 'you are this class, this is what you think' but the different ways of thinking have grown out of different pressures and expectations and it can be important to look at those as part of moving to a more equitable society. What I noticed most when moving into the middle classes, especially when talking with people who are from generations of university graduates, is the assumption that your opinion is important and you are entitled to share it. That didn't happen in my family of origin who basically listened to their 'superiors' - the ones often who were paying their weekly wages and telling them what to do. These are generalisations of course but I think it is important to look at as despite the numerous exceptions, these factor do shape out communities.

Education and wealth no longer strictly define class because of free government education and non-traditional ways of making money such as being a model or winning the lottery. Nowadays there are many people who are educated but poor, and many people who are rich but tasteless and uneducated.

Middle class is defined by having taste and culture but no money. Theoretically you know what to wear and which fork to use, but you can’t afford to buy those clothes or dine at those restaurants.

In this day and age it’s only the wannabe middle classes who obsess about class.

To those that think class isn't relevant anymore, it's not going anywhere soon, just take a look at our current government, there are far too many public school educated, well connected, wealthy background types and it's had a negative effect on the country - jobs for incompetent mates, pals in the press, contracts for contacts etc.

Out of touch with the majority of people.

I'm hopeful for the new 'class' of immigrant descendants who work hard and get by on that not the fact that their great great grandmother once married a fucking Duke and owned half of Norfolk. (Not Priti Patel though 😄)

OP both are middle-class.
The University Lecturer is probably lower middle class but hard to judge without knowing more. Academia as a job seems to be sliding down the class scale ever since the cap on university students was removed. So a Lecturer at Cambridge University teaching Classics is obviously higher status and money than a lecturer say at Derby University teaching floristry. Simply saying university lecturer is really too broad a term to by itself tell us much. I have taught in the evening a vocational course at a university as I do the job during the daytime. It was not well paid and I only did it for a year for my CV.

Farmer middle class. They run their own business, are not managed by anyone else. They have expensive business assets but are cash poor. They also have higher social status than someone working in the tills on Iceland and renting a housing association house.

To people saying 'it's all gone away and it doesn't matter anymore' I disagree. I've worked for a number of large global corps and no matter what HR targets they set, the leadership team in the UK is always white, middle class males. I realise that covers sex and colour as well but these men are usually well spoken from dull private schools (not public schools note, going into some businesses isn't upper middle enough), those with more regional accents tend to be middle managers and or in sales. They tend not to become the CFO or CEOs. It has changed a bit but, by and large your education, accent and other class signifiers will help you up the greasy pole more than hard work.

It’s by your social resources / connections
Who you and your family know, basically. Sometimes money and career can put you in the circle of making influential acquaintances but it’s just one factor of many.

@UserBot99

Yes, it's embarrassing. I'm Irish and you never see threads about class on Irish parenting sites. I don't think you would see these threads on German, French, Scandinavian parenting sites! Why do British people buy in to a labelling system that puts 90% of them at the ''bottom''. Reject it.

I live in Ireland too, and it's more subtle here as Ireland is a more informal society than England, where I was born and lived most of my life to Irish immigrant parents. That said, I don't think it's as clear cut even in England any more and hasn't been for some time, even in the 90s. I think in Ireland there is a sort of classification of people but it wouldn't be so much "working", "middle" and "upper", as whether or not some one is "rough" or from a "rough area", and even then, people don't seem to care about it so much so long as the person is sound and not "ignorant" nor behaves in an anti-social way nor is a criminal! This is my take on it but I'm aware I'm only one person!

Class is something that harks back to pre WWII. It's got little to do with money. You don't win the lottery and suddenly become middle class. There are plenty of working class people with money these days, often because they've invested in property or something similar.

Class has more to do with upbringing and family history. You can often tell somebodies class by their tastes, the way they speak, and their behaviour.

Class still exists to some degree, but it's far less relevant than it used to be. Since WWII there has been much greater mixing of classes which makes it difficult to define 'class' as a category. It's a bit like asking where a mixed race child comes from.

@Malariahilaria

To people saying 'it's all gone away and it doesn't matter anymore' I disagree. I've worked for a number of large global corps and no matter what HR targets they set, the leadership team in the UK is always white, middle class males. I realise that covers sex and colour as well but these men are usually well spoken from dull private schools (not public schools note, going into some businesses isn't upper middle enough), those with more regional accents tend to be middle managers and or in sales. They tend not to become the CFO or CEOs. It has changed a bit but, by and large your education, accent and other class signifiers will help you up the greasy pole more than hard work.

Currently work in a global Corp but have worked at all sorts. Overwhelmingly yes white MC males but everyone who makes it into senior management no matter their sex and ethnicity are a certain ‘type’. Privileged upbringing, polished and educated at top universities. Also yes no strong accents.

I was an international student and the majority of non-EU ones were from a similar background - some not as ‘polished’ but certainly among the affluent in their home country. Not surprising as working hours are limited on a visa and a year’s fees alone for international students can be between 10 - 20K depending on the university.

I’d say that these people have a better chance of getting a top job than a WC British grad no matter their colour. Networking, taking risks etc all come naturally to them.

A lot of ‘diversity’ initiatives are also filled by these people rather than presumably British born POC

@TractorAndHeadphones yes the Nigerian man who got a sponsorship training post in my last place as part of an increasing diversity initiative, had parents who owned a sugar plantation. He was black, but certainly not poor.

Ffs...not this again