MN and their approach to autism

[HypocrisyHere]

I have attached two screenshots. One showing the two threads I’m watching, the other the deletion message from the first watched thread which was deleted.

The subjects of the two threads are

(1) Any ‘positive’ autism stories?
(2) Married to someone with Asperger’s: support thread 5

My confusion is that the first was deleted because “the title was not in spirit of the site” Yet thread 2 - which has (IMO) a deeply offensive as it implies all people with Asperger’s are a problem in a relationship (leaving aside the ghastly ableism within the thread) is absolutely fine?

Thread 1 was from a concerned parent who may have used clunky wording but was looking for support - yet she has been deleted. Thread 2 is for concerned partners who can blame every poor behaviour of their partners on autism and that’s all fine?

As an autistic person this makes no sense to me at all and highlights not only ableism within MNHQ but also a deeply inconsistent approach to moderation?

(Have name changed as I’m a coward)

Of course it's not about othering their partners. It's about exploring their own relationships with neurodiverse partners and finding support from people who are in the same situation and possibly experiencing similar behaviours. It's giving them a space to vent and be supported.

Honestly it's really clear on this thread that those opposed to the support thread think only the feelings of the autistic partners matter. They must take front and centre! Everyone else must adapt and bend around them.

Except they are free to start their own threads! Give those on the support thread their space to be supported.

Most NT people can balance theirs and other peoples needs better. They do so millions of time a day. Sometimes they might choose to put their needs first, sometimes they put others first. It's a ongoing balance often unconscious.

Autistic people are not inherently selfish. Selfishness is not a part of the condition. Our behaviours can appear unusual but many of us are kind and empathetic and actually are people pleasers.

@Caramellatteplease

Very true, this is why most threads involving autism end in a row

It's why living with autism can be highly conflictual too

To give a real lived example DS might want to cross a road, I dont want him too. He might not see why my need outweighs his. The fact theres an oncoming car isnt relevant to him he needs to get to his destination...

Most NT people can balance theirs and other peoples needs better. They do so millions of time a day. Sometimes they might choose to put their needs first, sometimes they put others first. It's a ongoing balance often unconscious.

But you can guarantee they definitely would put their need to cross a road above some one wanting them to stop them. They are way less likely to end up in front of a moving car as a result.

I understand every interaction is a negotion and a compromise.things that would be normal are already a compromise to DS. If he could be sat alone playing computer with food arriving 3 times a day and me somewhere in the house he is utterly happy in life, everything else (except for disney and theme park visits) are a compromise . Given the need to compromise so much, there is little understanding as to when to "compromise" and when to not. If he is in a dentist chair, why is his need for painkillers more important than the dentists need to get on with it. It's easier to say nothing despite the increased pain (Yes weve been there too).

One day I might be arguing with DS why he shouldn't walk in front of a car the other why he might want to tell the Dentist hes in pain and pause the filling...

And on the whole I'm dealing with these obvious compromises, as you become an adult the compromises become more challenging and complex, especially when they involve money or your own slightly fragile sense of self.

OP you may not see why these "negative" threads need to exist. They do not support you and cause you pain. Why should you compromise your needs and pain for others needs and pain?

That is totally part of autism and ironically why such threads are necessary

This is very well written.

The threads I have been involved in about autism usually end up in heated discussion/ rows around there being different levels of need or impact cause by autism. Caramellatte's post is exactly the problem I usually encounter in these discussions.

@Itsnotover

Most NT people can balance theirs and other peoples needs better. They do so millions of time a day. Sometimes they might choose to put their needs first, sometimes they put others first. It's a ongoing balance often unconscious.

Autistic people are not inherently selfish. Selfishness is not a part of the condition. Our behaviours can appear unusual but many of us are kind and empathetic and actually are people pleasers.

Yes I agree with you but can you see how demanding a support thread be shut down might appear selfish? It's literally self-centring to force people not to discuss their needs and feelings because their needs and feelings offend you.

The problem I have with the threads is that they reduce people to their diagnosis when autistic people are all very different from each other. The threads here reinforce stereotypes and ignorance about autism by assuming we're all the same.

Yes I agree with you but can you see how demanding a support thread be shut down might appear selfish? It's literally self-centring to force people not to discuss their needs and feelings because their needs and feelings offend you.

If it's ableist then yes it should be shut down. There is nothing self centred about not wanting to be discriminated against.

If you want to be discriminating and ableist then you have the right to do that behind closed doors or in private Facebook groups but not on a public forum where we all have to see it and where it will hurt the feelings of people who have a disability that they never asked for.

@Itsnotover

The problem I have with the threads is that they reduce people to their diagnosis when autistic people are all very different from each other. The threads here reinforce stereotypes and ignorance about autism by assuming we're all the same.

I'm going by what I'm observing on this thread to be honest with you. But while people with autism are all very different - just as we all are very different- there are sometimes observable behaviour patterns and thinking processes. This is probably what people find enlightening on the other thread. If anything I suspect it may help people understand their partners better.

I agree people should leave if they aren't happy, which many on the thread are in the process of doing. I suspect like any other relationship many have tried to talk about it, but really someone saying I can't change y because I have autism whilst true doesn't really solve anything for the partner does it? It really just pushes the idea that people should put up with it because the person can't help it which isn't fair. And yes, I don't see the issue on an Internet forum for someone to be able to post about how a loved ones situation is affecting them, in the 'real world' its often not seen as acceptable to do so and so these spaces provide a much needed place often.

@Itsnotover

Most NT people can balance theirs and other peoples needs better. They do so millions of time a day. Sometimes they might choose to put their needs first, sometimes they put others first. It's a ongoing balance often unconscious.

Autistic people are not inherently selfish. Selfishness is not a part of the condition. Our behaviours can appear unusual but many of us are kind and empathetic and actually are people pleasers.

Lacking empathy is not the same thing as being selfish, although it can look like being selfish.

Lacking empathy IS a common autistic trait.
Are you trying to say it isn't?

My mother, partner and DS all find it hard to impossible to put themselves in other people's shoes or predict or understand the consequences of their actions on others.

Should I stop giving them leeway as I think it's their autism making empathy difficult for them, and instead assume they are just selfish people?

I know a hell of a lot of high functioning autistic people who would take great offence at being called disabled....but I wouldn't nor would they ask for a thread to be deleted because someone else sees it that was.

Some autistic people are disabled and some aren't. The severity of the symptoms of autism vary to such a huge degree and some have a learning disability or other diagnosis alongside their autism. Most of the discussion on Mumsnet pertains to male high functioning heterosexual partners. They obviously don't represent all autistic people.

@Camperbann

I agree people should leave if they aren't happy, which many on the thread are in the process of doing. I suspect like any other relationship many have tried to talk about it, but really someone saying I can't change y because I have autism whilst true doesn't really solve anything for the partner does it? It really just pushes the idea that people should put up with it because the person can't help it which isn't fair. And yes, I don't see the issue on an Internet forum for someone to be able to post about how a loved ones situation is affecting them, in the 'real world' its often not seen as acceptable to do so and so these spaces provide a much needed place often.

I have had partners who complain that I don't seem to understand what they want from me.

As far as empathy goes, there is a difference between not knowing how someone feels and not caring. For me it would be the former.

I have explained to partners that if they want something from me they need to tell me and I'll provide it. But they often ignore me on that point and just assume I must be lying. And that I really do know what they want but I'm pretending to not know.

How do we know the NT partners on these threads are not doing the same thing?

@Itsnotover

If you want to be discriminating and ableist then you have the right to do that behind closed doors or in private Facebook groups but not on a public forum where we all have to see it and where it will hurt the feelings of people who have a disability that they never asked for.

Actually I haven't observed the behaviour you are describing but I would probably in general recommend hiding the threads if they offend you. In the same way I could hide threads where people are salivating over meat because I'm vegetarian. I wouldn't demand MN removes all meat recipes from the site. I just accept that a thread called '100 ways to cook a steak' isn't going to be for me.

There are a great many threads that cause me offence in all sorts of ways (casual classism/racist threads / antivax bollocks / looking down on poverty etc) but I don't attempt to shut them down. I might eye roll a few posts and I would certainly report anything outrageous- MNHQ are generally very on the ball in my experience. I don't believe I have the right to avoid all offence in life. If I did my life would be much more upsetting.

My mother, partner and DS all find it hard to impossible to put themselves in other people's shoes or predict or understand the consequences of their actions on others.

I can definitely understand the consequences my actions might have on others and I'm very aware of it but I can't accurately predict how others might behave.

@Itsnotover

The problem I have with the threads is that they reduce people to their diagnosis when autistic people are all very different from each other. The threads here reinforce stereotypes and ignorance about autism by assuming we're all the same.

This x 100000

@HereticFanjo

I'm not saying they should ban threads about having a ND partner but they certainly should delete ableist comments.

@Itsnotover they might be doing the same, in that scenario though it doesn't seem unreasonable. Personally I wouldn't find a relationship fulfilling if I had to tell a partner what I felt I wanted or needed. I wouldn't assume it's them lying or not caring, but the end outcome is the same ultimately. Other people though would find that conversation and way of living great and it would work for both of them. Just as ND people are all different, so are NT people.

Personally I wouldn't find a relationship fulfilling if I had to tell a partner what I felt I wanted or needed. I wouldn't assume it's them lying or not caring, but the end outcome is the same ultimately.

So, what you do is you either don't marry that person in the first place or you leave. Instead of bitching about them on the internet?

Yanbu.

Another one who thinks autistic people are selfish and incapable of empathy. Brilliant

Actually I think if you look at my examples you can see it's nothing to do with empathy or selfishness. Not getting painkillers at a dentist isnt selfish, walking in front of a car is not selfish. DS will be upset if I'm upset, he will be worried if someone cries in the house.

Another example. ExDP was determined to do something nice for me. He knew it was nice and would make me happy. However in his single minded determination to do the thing he inadvertently behaved completely thoughtlessly. To the extent that I was furious, thought correctly he was hiding something (I assumed bad) and wanted to split up. He was devastated utterly paralysed by my upset, he completely shut down unable to talk ended up ill. Most NT would be able to say "hang on, I was only doing this because...." but his need to give me this secret surprise was too important to do that. He had no idea what to do about my upset, he felt it, boy did he feel it, but he couldn't resolve it without ruining something else that was meant to be happy. He couldn't balance that We survived that time . 4 months later he had his big tadaa moment. The surprise was awesome caring and brilliant. He so pleased, as if it made everything ok. But for me as much as I plastered a smile on my face, it by no means made up for the initial trauma. It was the beginning of the end for me and ironically for him too. He knew I was still upset, but didnt get why, hed done a nice thing!!!. He no long felt he understood what made me happy, he stability had been completely removed. It was utterly heartbreaking.

Balancing needs isnt about selfishness. Autism is not about selfishness.

@Itsnotover

Personally I wouldn't find a relationship fulfilling if I had to tell a partner what I felt I wanted or needed. I wouldn't assume it's them lying or not caring, but the end outcome is the same ultimately.

So, what you do is you either don't marry that person in the first place or you leave. Instead of bitching about them on the internet?

Yes I would personally, but it's more complex than that isn't it. Some women feel they can change men, some men mask whilst dating and as things change ie having a child certain behaviours etc arise that are hard to live with, if someone is head over heels with the person perhaps they do want to seek support and advice from others who have been in the same position in the hope they can get through it, and some probably have spent years and years putting their own needs second to someone else and have finally reached their breaking point.

Another thing that annoys me about those threads is the way that autistic seems to have become an explanation for 'selfish man' which it isnt!

Often these people don't even have a diagnosis and their partner has armchair diagnosed them.

Yes and here is why there will never be a kind place for autistic people on MN.

I have been told by a neurotypical person that I am wrong to feel offended by threads titled “support thread for people married to someone with Asperger’s (as the title was the purpose of this the read). The title in itself is offensive

1. It suggest ALL relationships with an autistic person are difficult
2. It suggest ALL of the problems are with the autistic person (and content backs this up)
3. It states Asperger’s but several forms of autism are referred to

The content - which admittedly I have been dragged into on this thread which was not my intention - IS offensive to many a autistic people (telling me it’s not offensive is like a white personal telling a black person what’s racist and what’s not).

It is offensive as most partners are not diagnosed
It is offensive as every bad trait is blamed on autism
It is offensive as it portrays itself as representative of ALL marriages to autistic people (evidence - the number of times I’ve seen the threads referred to as a place someone can go and see what being married to an autistic person is like and also by the comment “hopefully someone is reading this and running”)
It is offensive as autistic people are not welcome on that thread.

And in response to @Caramellatteplease who is continually suggesting I’m trying to shut down all discussions which are not positive about autism. I’m really not and I find you continually trying to gaslight me by stating this, frankly Patronising and bullying. You are trying to suggest I cannot see things clearly because of “theory of mind” and that you are not invalidating me. You are - you absolutely are. Are you telling me how You’ve made me feel is not valid? That’s ironic don’t it? I absolutely don’t expect everything to be centred on me - I’ve assorted my entire life to try to fit in to a world designed for NTs - so how dare you suggest I’m trying to make this about me. It’s completely out of order.

What I personally would find acceptable is a thread which was titled “support thread for those in difficult NT/ND relationships”

Then I think the opening post should make the following statements

1. All partners - NT and ND - are allowed to comment
2. No generalisations of either neurotype
3. This is not representative of NT/ND relationships as a whole - it is on an individual basis only
4. All responses should be civil.
5. There should be no repetition of autistic myths such as “no empathy”, cold and unfeeling, that there is no such thing as “mild autism” and that “very high functioning” makes no sense (HFA = IQ of over 70 - not that they breeze through life with no issues)

6 all responses should be based on personal experience - and no one should state the person is wrong in feeling a certain way.

I think if these caveats were made then though I know that the content would be mainly driven by unhappy self-diagnosed NT spouses, most people will have at least been given some context and it will not be seen as a definitive description of ALL autistic partners.

But it would also be a place where those needing support can get it. And as I’ve already said, yes we can be difficult so I understand the need for discussion. (But I think - agains as already stated - that NTs also behave unacceptably and that causes problems too)

Peace to you all, happy 2022 and I hope that MN can perhaps become a place that is a little less hostile to autistic people in the next year.

@Mabelface

I do get fucked off when shitty behaviour gets lumped in with asd and blamed, often with no diagnosis. I have asd and I'm not a twat.

Yes this is what happens. Autism is a complex condition really. Some people are cold because they have attachment disorders which are a completely different thing.

@HypocrisyHere

Yes and here is why there will never be a kind place for autistic people on MN.

I have been told by a neurotypical person that I am wrong to feel offended by threads titled “support thread for people married to someone with Asperger’s (as the title was the purpose of this the read). The title in itself is offensive

1. It suggest ALL relationships with an autistic person are difficult
2. It suggest ALL of the problems are with the autistic person (and content backs this up)
3. It states Asperger’s but several forms of autism are referred to

The content - which admittedly I have been dragged into on this thread which was not my intention - IS offensive to many a autistic people (telling me it’s not offensive is like a white personal telling a black person what’s racist and what’s not).

It is offensive as most partners are not diagnosed
It is offensive as every bad trait is blamed on autism
It is offensive as it portrays itself as representative of ALL marriages to autistic people (evidence - the number of times I’ve seen the threads referred to as a place someone can go and see what being married to an autistic person is like and also by the comment “hopefully someone is reading this and running”)
It is offensive as autistic people are not welcome on that thread.

And in response to @Caramellatteplease who is continually suggesting I’m trying to shut down all discussions which are not positive about autism. I’m really not and I find you continually trying to gaslight me by stating this, frankly Patronising and bullying. You are trying to suggest I cannot see things clearly because of “theory of mind” and that you are not invalidating me. You are - you absolutely are. Are you telling me how You’ve made me feel is not valid? That’s ironic don’t it? I absolutely don’t expect everything to be centred on me - I’ve assorted my entire life to try to fit in to a world designed for NTs - so how dare you suggest I’m trying to make this about me. It’s completely out of order.

What I personally would find acceptable is a thread which was titled “support thread for those in difficult NT/ND relationships”

Then I think the opening post should make the following statements

1. All partners - NT and ND - are allowed to comment
2. No generalisations of either neurotype
3. This is not representative of NT/ND relationships as a whole - it is on an individual basis only
4. All responses should be civil.
5. There should be no repetition of autistic myths such as “no empathy”, cold and unfeeling, that there is no such thing as “mild autism” and that “very high functioning” makes no sense (HFA = IQ of over 70 - not that they breeze through life with no issues)

6 all responses should be based on personal experience - and no one should state the person is wrong in feeling a certain way.

I think if these caveats were made then though I know that the content would be mainly driven by unhappy self-diagnosed NT spouses, most people will have at least been given some context and it will not be seen as a definitive description of ALL autistic partners.

But it would also be a place where those needing support can get it. And as I’ve already said, yes we can be difficult so I understand the need for discussion. (But I think - agains as already stated - that NTs also behave unacceptably and that causes problems too)

Peace to you all, happy 2022 and I hope that MN can perhaps become a place that is a little less hostile to autistic people in the next year.

👏👏👏

I completely agree. Many of us have quite severe mental health issues after a lifetime of trying to fit in with NT people in an NT world. Then we have a cheek to ask people not to be ableist and discriminatory because that makes it all about us?!