MN and their approach to autism

[HypocrisyHere]

I have attached two screenshots. One showing the two threads I’m watching, the other the deletion message from the first watched thread which was deleted.

The subjects of the two threads are

(1) Any ‘positive’ autism stories?
(2) Married to someone with Asperger’s: support thread 5

My confusion is that the first was deleted because “the title was not in spirit of the site” Yet thread 2 - which has (IMO) a deeply offensive as it implies all people with Asperger’s are a problem in a relationship (leaving aside the ghastly ableism within the thread) is absolutely fine?

Thread 1 was from a concerned parent who may have used clunky wording but was looking for support - yet she has been deleted. Thread 2 is for concerned partners who can blame every poor behaviour of their partners on autism and that’s all fine?

As an autistic person this makes no sense to me at all and highlights not only ableism within MNHQ but also a deeply inconsistent approach to moderation?

(Have name changed as I’m a coward)

Very true, this is why most threads involving autism end in a row

I tend to avoid them, I'm either a shit parent or I am not allowed to admit I struggle because it is all about ds and his autism. I have pretty much no support in RL and online support is often unhelpful due to the first part of my post.

These threads always go the same way. Those who have a voice do not speak for everyone with an ASC. Those who have the cognitive and neurological skills to be able to use a social media forum and formulate coherent debates are not representative of everyone.
I’ve been criticised for speaking negatively about the challenges my family faces with autism, by other people who have autism.

@HypocrisyHere

Yes and here is why there will never be a kind place for autistic people on MN.

I have been told by a neurotypical person that I am wrong to feel offended by threads titled “support thread for people married to someone with Asperger’s (as the title was the purpose of this the read). The title in itself is offensive

1. It suggest ALL relationships with an autistic person are difficult
2. It suggest ALL of the problems are with the autistic person (and content backs this up)
3. It states Asperger’s but several forms of autism are referred to

The content - which admittedly I have been dragged into on this thread which was not my intention - IS offensive to many a autistic people (telling me it’s not offensive is like a white personal telling a black person what’s racist and what’s not).

It is offensive as most partners are not diagnosed
It is offensive as every bad trait is blamed on autism
It is offensive as it portrays itself as representative of ALL marriages to autistic people (evidence - the number of times I’ve seen the threads referred to as a place someone can go and see what being married to an autistic person is like and also by the comment “hopefully someone is reading this and running”)
It is offensive as autistic people are not welcome on that thread.

And in response to @Caramellatteplease who is continually suggesting I’m trying to shut down all discussions which are not positive about autism. I’m really not and I find you continually trying to gaslight me by stating this, frankly Patronising and bullying. You are trying to suggest I cannot see things clearly because of “theory of mind” and that you are not invalidating me. You are - you absolutely are. Are you telling me how You’ve made me feel is not valid? That’s ironic don’t it? I absolutely don’t expect everything to be centred on me - I’ve assorted my entire life to try to fit in to a world designed for NTs - so how dare you suggest I’m trying to make this about me. It’s completely out of order.

What I personally would find acceptable is a thread which was titled “support thread for those in difficult NT/ND relationships”

Then I think the opening post should make the following statements

1. All partners - NT and ND - are allowed to comment
2. No generalisations of either neurotype
3. This is not representative of NT/ND relationships as a whole - it is on an individual basis only
4. All responses should be civil.
5. There should be no repetition of autistic myths such as “no empathy”, cold and unfeeling, that there is no such thing as “mild autism” and that “very high functioning” makes no sense (HFA = IQ of over 70 - not that they breeze through life with no issues)

6 all responses should be based on personal experience - and no one should state the person is wrong in feeling a certain way.

I think if these caveats were made then though I know that the content would be mainly driven by unhappy self-diagnosed NT spouses, most people will have at least been given some context and it will not be seen as a definitive description of ALL autistic partners.

But it would also be a place where those needing support can get it. And as I’ve already said, yes we can be difficult so I understand the need for discussion. (But I think - agains as already stated - that NTs also behave unacceptably and that causes problems too)

Peace to you all, happy 2022 and I hope that MN can perhaps become a place that is a little less hostile to autistic people in the next year.

Alot of that are assumptions you're making though and how you're perceiving it. Whilst of course your perception is valid, where do we draw the line? It's intent is not to suggest everyone is the same and it's a key point on the moderation of the thread. By kind do you mean nothing that I might not like? Also surely by having a thread for difficult relationships it makes it harder for people who want to to avoid these discussions? Armchair or self diagnoses are wrong on both ends- it also happens on threads where someone seeks advice about something and people chime in and say you have to put up with it as the child might have autism. Of course that is an important consideration and it's not acceptable to barge in and say whatever, but it doesn't mean things can't be addressed and people should just be kind and put up with it.

”Peace to you all, happy 2022 and I hope that MN can perhaps become a place that is a little less hostile to autistic people in the next year.“

Yes please! Adding to this, kindness to their care givers and their families.
Some of us dedicate our lives to providing care to our loved ones, some of whom have extremely complex and severe needs. I have no bitterness because adore I my child but my god, do I have sad and angry days. Our children matter too, so do we as carers.

[quote Itsnotover]@HereticFanjo

I'm not saying they should ban threads about having a ND partner but they certainly should delete ableist comments.[/quote]
I don't think anyone disagrees with you in principle but you may not agree with the moderator viewpoint on what ableism actually is.

MNHQ is deeply ableist. I've raised this with them before by email and even made a formal complaint, but zero progress.

If you look for offence, you can find it absolutely anywhere.

I tried to put a stop to the ‘married to’ stuff years ago. I was hounded and harassed and had to name change.

Yes please! Adding to this, kindness to their care givers and their families.
Some of us dedicate our lives to providing care to our loved ones, some of whom have extremely complex and severe needs. I have no bitterness because adore I my child but my god, do I have sad and angry days. Our children matter too, so do we as carers

I agree. Autism is imo mostly genetic. Two of my 4 girls are on the spectrum. One of them has very high care needs and she doesn't like speaking. Like me, her autism affects her mental health. She could be aggressive and on occasion she attacked me whilst I was driving (which I didn't attempt to do again). I always felt more sad for her than for myself because I can see how much pain she's in. She never asked for her brain to be wired this way. She's 20 now and has in the last few days stopped eating and drinking because she's upset. She's in a specialist placement now and they've managed to get her out of it thankfully.

@Innocenta

MNHQ is deeply ableist. I've raised this with them before by email and even made a formal complaint, but zero progress.

I have heard that MN has a vested interest in having threads of certain topics because they benefit from them financially. No idea if this is true.

@RelationshipOrNot

I don't find that series of threads on Relationships ableist at all. They help me understand how my behaviour comes across to neurotypical people and I've taken away some really good lessons about how to make people feel appreciated and how things that seem innocuous to me can come across as hurtful and rude to others. Some real eye-opening moments. I also think it's fair for people to be allowed to talk openly with others in the same situation.

This.

I've heard some parents of children with disabilities complaining that they find it hard to talk about, and get peer support, about the challenges now, because of this pressure to be 'positive'. Its ok to admit that certain disabilities or conditions, or past experiences, can make life more challenging and to seek support with this.

That's very interesting, @Itsnotover - I wasn't aware of this aspect at all. Thanks for bringing it up.

@Whitefire

Very true, this is why most threads involving autism end in a row

I tend to avoid them, I'm either a shit parent or I am not allowed to admit I struggle because it is all about ds and his autism. I have pretty much no support in RL and online support is often unhelpful due to the first part of my post.

This is the real tragedy. Parents and people who need support don't get that and that doesn't help them or their loved ones, does it?

I have heard that MN has a vested interest in having threads of certain topics because they benefit from them financially. No idea if this is true

If anything MN have lost advertising money from offering women a safe space to talk about a particular topic. In what way do you think they profit from threads on autism though, and why would you use the site if you believe that to be the case?

I think one of the biggest problems - which may well prove to be less of a problem as time moves on - is the fact that until pretty recently getting a diagnosis for all but those at the extreme end of the autism spectrum was just not a thing.

That means that although there is a lot more awareness of autism, it is very likely that if you are an adult in your 40s/50s or possibly mid 30s, you would not have been diagnosed nor supported as todays children are being (although I do acknowledge the level of support and understanding and help to negotiate through life is very varied) and this can have a massive impact on your ability to cope compared to how hopefully our children will be able to cope in the future.

This means that those adults who find they are autistic and its causing problems with their relationship are often in a pretty tricky situation. It means that often they have developed behaviours and coping mechanisms to get by, and many of those are really not helpful for being part of a partnership. And, as I mentioned upthread, feeling different, or stupid, or out of control, and because there are no learnimng difficulties, or even you are high achieving academically or in a work sphere, can be traumatic when you find you cant hold down relationships, when you get abused because you dont see the red flags, when you lack the skills for everyday executive function and self care.

This trauma can create situations where you develope maladaptive behaviours - be it internal anxiety/ self harm/ isolation / attachment problems / crippling self doubt / raging / controlling behaviour / 'tantrums' - these are the classic signs of personality disorders and yes, this can make these undiagnosed/ late diagnosed adults a whole different kettle of fish than the ASD children that we are also discussing.

Learned and repeated behaviour is hard to change, but it is not impossible. My psychologist suggested that, due to socialising and other factors, women are often more self aware and more willing to look at and address the problems in social interaction and understand how their autism has impacted their lives, whereas men seem to be more willing to understand that the autism is the cause but are quite tricky to actively take steps to change habitual behaviour - hence the tendancy for them to often say 'its my ASD and this is how I am' - a fact you often see on the 'married to a man with ASD' threads.

changing a behaviour that has become ingrained is very difficult. when the behaviour gets you what you want and changing it will make life harder, and you are not REALLY that bothered about social interaction beyond getting your needs met often doesnt seem to be worth the effort. It all depends upon your level of sociability within the spectrum - which seem to fall into 4 groups - no need desire for interaction with others / only need interaction for needs being met / want interaction but dont know how / social but 'odd' and needs to control the interaction.

If the person with cancer was behaving differently because of their cancer (for example if it was affecting their brain) I really don't think that it would be seen as reasonable to be posting about how hard done by the partner was

I think it would be entirely appropriate for someone in this situation to seek support. That would be a very hard situation for the partner to be in too. Trying to pretend it isn't would overwhelm them and that doesn't help them or the person with cancer.

I’m very autistic (adhd, add, ocd - it’s like a fucking cocktail) and the older I get I feel I meet fewer and fewer people who are not on the spectrum in some way.

I’ve found MN has a very us and them attitude. You’re either autistic and difficult, be you a child or a partner, or you’re completely neurotypical and the backbone of the family.

I’m autistic and I’m fucking brilliant but I’m also a fucking bitch, there’s no in between. The same way there’s no in between with any other individual.

Positive stories makes it sound like you’re adopting a dog, then again some of the autism support comments are fucking heinous. People don’t even attempt to hide their disgust of the condition at times.

@Arethechildreninbedyet

I’m very autistic (adhd, add, ocd - it’s like a fucking cocktail) and the older I get I feel I meet fewer and fewer people who are not on the spectrum in some way.

I’ve found MN has a very us and them attitude. You’re either autistic and difficult, be you a child or a partner, or you’re completely neurotypical and the backbone of the family.

I’m autistic and I’m fucking brilliant but I’m also a fucking bitch, there’s no in between. The same way there’s no in between with any other individual.

Positive stories makes it sound like you’re adopting a dog, then again some of the autism support comments are fucking heinous. People don’t even attempt to hide their disgust of the condition at times.

exactly. I have ASD and ADHD and although I know Im a brilliant mum and advocate for my two children, I know I can also be a nightmare too. I dont live with my ASD partner. I just dont see how it would work. Maybe later. who knows.

@NettleTea I agree with everything in your post. I couldn't have expressed it as well though!

I've hidden that thread so I won't be triggered by it. It's a horrible title to have to keep reading, not just the whole idea of it but also seeing the term Asperger's. I'm not in the UK, here it's very much not used anymore and considered offensive in the Autistic led communities I'm a part of. A quick google about Asperger's, his treatment of disabled children and his collaboration with Nazi's makes it easy to see why.

I'm also really over reading someone say I think my OH half is Autistic, followed by a list of abusive behaviours and posters saying someone's OH could be Autistic in response to an OP listing abusive behaviours. It's really insulting and belittling. Some Autistic people are abusive or nasty, but they're not Abusive or nasty because they're Autistic, they are someone who happens to be abusive or nasty as well as being Autistic.

@Whitefire

Very true, this is why most threads involving autism end in a row

I tend to avoid them, I'm either a shit parent or I am not allowed to admit I struggle because it is all about ds and his autism. I have pretty much no support in RL and online support is often unhelpful due to the first part of my post.

I find this so frustrating too and empathise with you so much.

So many poster have such a pious approach to autism and HOW DARE YOU SAY YOU STRUGGLE IT’S A GIFT ALL AUTISTIC CHILDREN ARE ANGELS YOU’RE SO ABLEIST ACTUALLY THE CORRECT TERMINOLOGY IS NEUROLOGICALLY DIVERSE ABCD123 YOU FUCKING NUMPTY.

It makes them feel better about themselves and it gives them a title of ‘autism supermum’. Acknowledging that you struggle is a strength, don’t forget that. They ALL struggle they will just never admit it.

@Camperbann

I have heard that MN has a vested interest in having threads of certain topics because they benefit from them financially. No idea if this is true

If anything MN have lost advertising money from offering women a safe space to talk about a particular topic. In what way do you think they profit from threads on autism though, and why would you use the site if you believe that to be the case?

This is something I've heard from an acquaintance who has specific knowledge about websites and monetisation.

They were talking about how there are other topics which are shut down quickly because they don't benefit the site.

@LunaAndHerMoonDragons

I've hidden that thread so I won't be triggered by it. It's a horrible title to have to keep reading, not just the whole idea of it but also seeing the term Asperger's. I'm not in the UK, here it's very much not used anymore and considered offensive in the Autistic led communities I'm a part of. A quick google about Asperger's, his treatment of disabled children and his collaboration with Nazi's makes it easy to see why.

I'm also really over reading someone say I think my OH half is Autistic, followed by a list of abusive behaviours and posters saying someone's OH could be Autistic in response to an OP listing abusive behaviours. It's really insulting and belittling. Some Autistic people are abusive or nasty, but they're not Abusive or nasty because they're Autistic, they are someone who happens to be abusive or nasty as well as being Autistic.

Agreed, I don't use Aspergers either.

@NettleTea

You do you, if it works for you and your partner who’s to say your way isn’t the right way? Cohabiting is really overhyped, you’ve got a safe space for you and your kids and that’s all that matters. If it’s not broken, why mend it?

Don't like the rules then post on a different site. I don't like the constant reports that go on for ablism, racism or misogyny and the often silly trigger warnings when often it is the permanently offended looking for offense.