MN and their approach to autism

[HypocrisyHere]

I have attached two screenshots. One showing the two threads I’m watching, the other the deletion message from the first watched thread which was deleted.

The subjects of the two threads are

(1) Any ‘positive’ autism stories?
(2) Married to someone with Asperger’s: support thread 5

My confusion is that the first was deleted because “the title was not in spirit of the site” Yet thread 2 - which has (IMO) a deeply offensive as it implies all people with Asperger’s are a problem in a relationship (leaving aside the ghastly ableism within the thread) is absolutely fine?

Thread 1 was from a concerned parent who may have used clunky wording but was looking for support - yet she has been deleted. Thread 2 is for concerned partners who can blame every poor behaviour of their partners on autism and that’s all fine?

As an autistic person this makes no sense to me at all and highlights not only ableism within MNHQ but also a deeply inconsistent approach to moderation?

(Have name changed as I’m a coward)

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

Personally, I don't like NT people and they've been the bane of my life. I wouldn't start a thread dedicated to bashing NT people though.

You can do if you like, most people would recognise it isn't a personal attack on them and recognise it was perhaps important for like minded people to talk about their struggles living with someone who is NT. Also I don't think anyone is denying the struggles and challenges autistic people face (I myself am one), but that doesn't mean comparing to the uphill struggles other groups face isn't ignorant. Racism is world's away, not better or worse, but not comparable either. But you seem very keen to prove how much of a victim you are so crack on.

See I think talking about and understanding how neurodiversity has affected me and my family has been a good and healing thing because it has shown and keeps showing how everyone is generally doing their best, that everyone faces specific challenges, why misunderstandings arise unintentionally etc.

Also there’s things I suspect e.g. my parents wouldn’t say in front of me not to hurt my feelings, but that they would probably say to one another when they needed to. I think that’s ok. As I’ve grown up they have told me some of those things when it became appropriate, to do with challenges they faced with me being how I am. It’s fair enough! I can see how hard it must be for them, as it also has been for me. The problem with the internet is that we might hear some of those things not meant for us.

You’re not helping with the stereotypes

Not my responsibility, seeing as this place will continue with the autism baiting.

You’re not helping with the stereotypes

It's not our job to teach. The onus is on NTs to learn about autism and take on board that we are still human and as individual as everyone else.

But you seem very keen to prove how much of a victim you are so crack on.

A victim, like the individuals on the 'married to an autistic' support thread you mean?

Evening, everyone. We're obviously concerned to hear that any of our users with autism or with family members who have autism are feeling upset by either the content or moderation here and we will look into it.

We're on a bit of a skeleton staff still over the holiday period but I'll flag this up for discussion when everyone is back at work. In the meantime, @hypocrisyhere, we wondered if you'd mind starting a new thread in Site Stuff about this? It will get 'properly' picked up there as we check that board regularly ourselves, but also, this thread has become a bit derailed in places and we don't want your main questions to be missed. Feel free to copy and paste or pop in a link to this. We will of course refer back to this thread but it might be easier to deal with this most effectively over there.

Thanks for your patience.

I stand to be corrected if my impression of the married to thread is wrong, but I thought it's purpose was for support, because the nt partners are aware their partners can't just change the behaviours they find it hard to live with. It's about their partner, not all autistic people. And that's ok.

I'm another that hates the 'insert black here' reasoning. It implies that racism isn't a current ongoing problem.

45TrainspottingWelsh

I stand to be corrected if my impression of the married to thread is wrong, but I thought it's purpose was for support, because the nt partners are aware their partners can't just change the behaviours they find it hard to live with. It's about their partner, not all autistic people. And that's ok.

The problem with those threads is that they perpetuate lazy and offensive tropes such as autistics are lacking in empathy, are unable to form emotional connections with others, are selfish, obsessive, lazy, suffer from tantrums etc. These are fundamental misunderstandings of autism and demonstrate an offensive ignorance towards this neurotype.

Most of the people being criticised haven't even got a diagnosis and you see the offensive tropes being peddled around the rest of the site. Armchair diagnosis is rife and relies on lazy stereotypes and outdated beliefs about what autism is and how it affects autistic people.

Regarding the comparison with racism. This is because, like non white people, autistics encounter prejudice, violence, bullying, being discriminated against and being marginalised due to their genetic makeup, appearance and presentation.

I should also like to say that autism is routinely judged and evaluated by NTs from its outward presentation of the behaviours rather than it being primarily an internal, lived experience of the autistic individual, many of whom struggle to express themselves well and therefore come in for further criticism due to that.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation thank you. That’s just put words on something I haven’t been able to articulate.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

I completely agree offensive tropes and stereotypes are often peddled around the site, and as I've said upthread I hate self dx based on superficial and/ or bad behaviour. However even in a perfect world where nobody judges, understanding isn't going to solve everything. You'll still get clashes, and disagreement and compromises needing to be made on both sides.

Eg a pp that would prefer less sarcasm in the world. That isn't reasonable. The compromise is everyone who is capable trying their best not to use it towards that pp. Without any suggestion they should put up and shut up, or judgement. And on the other side, an acceptance other people aren't wrong to use it elsewhere.

Or the pp with a dc that would cross the road regardless of traffic. Regardless of how much understanding anyone has of his internal experience of autism, the fact is it's the outward presentation that could harm him. You can't solve that, it will always be the dc compromising. Of course, it would make life easier if bystanders weren't generally arseholes in that type of situation. Or if we see a group of older dc playing chicken in the road to armchair dx autism because we've decided anti social behaviour equals autism.

Hell, I reckon if you polled everyone in the world with dx nd you wouldn't get an answer on whether playing the radio in work was ok. So even if the entire human race was nd we'd all still have to accept things that clash with our own needs.

And sometimes those clashes of need, or where or when compromise is necessary will occur in a relationship. And if anyone wanted to start a thread for autistic people struggling with nt partners I'd defend that too.

I still don't agree on racism. Yes, they're both unacceptable and discrimination, but I don't believe insert black here reasoning is constructive on any level. It's possible to argue against prejudice towards autism without needing to draw comparisons with racism.

[quote underneaththeash]@HypocrisyHere WTF you can't compare someone with Aspergers (who has something wrong with them) to being Jewish or Asian....

Two of my children have SEN and they do have something wrong with them however you want to say it.[/quote]
Fucking hell, the ableism and ignorance on this thread is wild. I am autistic and there is nothing WRONG with me.

I'm also surprised by people saying they know autistic people who prefer the term Aspergers when it's widely known that Hans Asperger was a nazi. The diagnosis was coined for the purposes of furthering the nazi regime.

In addition, the autistic community largely frowns upon "high functioning" and "low functioning" labels because it is very othering. The spectrum isn't a straight line, it's a circle and we all have our own specific areas requiring more support. I do take on board the desire for some signifier for someone with greater overall support needs but there needs to be a better way, one that doesn't create tiers. I feel like those clinging to the term Aspergers are trying to similarly differentiate themselves from people they see as "less than", to be frank.

@amusedbush the person I know well prefers Aspergers because that's what they were dx with, whether you are surprised or not. It's not up to you, or me or anyone else to tell them they need to change because it is now relatively well known Asperger was a nazi. And I think it's extremely rude and judgemental to suggest he, or anyone else uses it because they view others as less than.

You aren't really in a position to talk about ignorance when you're being disparaging about other autistic people, just because of the terminology when they were dx.

[quote TrainspottingWelsh]@amusedbush the person I know well prefers Aspergers because that's what they were dx with, whether you are surprised or not. It's not up to you, or me or anyone else to tell them they need to change because it is now relatively well known Asperger was a nazi. And I think it's extremely rude and judgemental to suggest he, or anyone else uses it because they view others as less than.

You aren't really in a position to talk about ignorance when you're being disparaging about other autistic people, just because of the terminology when they were dx.[/quote]
Fine, I will remain surprised. I know other people who were dx with Aspergers but, having done their own research since, now choose to refer to themselves as autistic. Your friend's attitude isn't one I've come across myself either in person or online. The people I know prefer the term autistic due to its inclusivity but to each their own. I can only speak to my own experience and perceptions.

@TrainspottingWelsh

Having read my post back now, I regret the wording of the last line and I apologise. I wrote my reply when I was upset by many posts on this thread when I should have stepped away to calm down.

@amusedbush It's really not very nice to police the terms someone else uses to describe themselves. No one is saying you have to use "Asperger's" (which would be awful).

@Innocenta

Hopefully my two posts above yours clears it up.

Fair enough and thanks for the apology @amusedbush.
I don't know many people in real life that care whether people say autistic person or person with autism, provided the context is respectful. But I absolutely believe people online when they say the terminology is important to them.
We don't generally have conversations about researching nd online, but knowing him, his personality and interests I would be incredibly surprised if he'd ever considered researching online about how he should refer to himself, or how he should 'do' autism now more information is available.
He's also not the only person I've met that uses Aspergers, but it's not the type of thing that pops up in casual conversation so I have no idea whether his reasoning is common.

Fucking hell, the ableism and ignorance on this thread is wild. I am autistic and there is nothing WRONG with me.
It's great autism hasn't had a negative impact on your life however it isn't the case for everyone.
My beautiful sweet DD is riddled with anxiety, has agoraphobia cannot complete basic tasks and requires many supports.
DS also diagnosed with autism has a host of social, emotional, anger, sensory issues, lives on the clock.
In comparison to same age DC they've a lot of issues.

@Emerald5hamrock

Fucking hell, the ableism and ignorance on this thread is wild. I am autistic and there is nothing WRONG with me. It's great autism hasn't had a negative impact on your life however it isn't the case for everyone. My beautiful sweet DD is riddled with anxiety, has agoraphobia cannot complete basic tasks and requires many supports. DS also diagnosed with autism has a host of social, emotional, anger, sensory issues, lives on the clock. In comparison to same age DC they've a lot of issues.

I interpreted the post differently - that although the poster has autism it doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with them.

I interpreted the post differently - that although the poster has autism it doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with them.

@amusedbush @AlfonsoTheGoat

But the DSM5 mentions 'deficits' and says that there has to be clinically significant 'impairment' in functioning to obtain a diagnosis...

So how can there be nothing wrong? Surely someone needs to be struggling to receive a diagnosis in the first place?

I don't mean to offend, but I don't understand this. There isn't anything wrong with someone of course, but there must be something wrong , ie some problems, to achieve a diagnosis. Or are we just arguing over semantics?

My Ds (17) has Autism. My DD (14) has Autism. Despite their very real difficulties neither were dx'd till age 12 (the area we live in is well known for refusing to dx) so they had years of no support (still v little tbh). I read some of the 1st thread. I could understand why the OP had started it & how it could help inform & support an NT parent trying to understand & support their child (it can be a worrying lonely role)

I've not read any of the: 'married to' threads. My exH is not Dx'd. He 'thinks he's ASD but doesn't want a formal assessment'. As my kids are maturing I can see that some of the challenges I had when married to exH were due to his ASD traits (such as social comms difficulties & rigidity of thought). Some were due to his abusive behaviour. Like all people he is a unique individual.

To add to the mix, I have a now permanent physical disability (developed during the marriage). The amount of 'able- ism' I've seen my kids experience (& now experienced myself) is really depressing in Life in General and on SM (as a reflection of LiG)

@amusedbush I missed that one - I do apologise!

It's great autism hasn't had a negative impact on your life however it isn't the case for everyone.

The poster never said they dont struggle. They said there's nothing wrong with them
It's not wrong to have difficulties which NTs don't have. It's not wrong to struggle with life.
What is wrong is people thinking they have the right tontell autistic people that there's something wrong with them. We are different but not wrong.

@HebeMumsnet I have now started a new thread in site stuff. Thank you.