To ask how you afford to live in London?

[seekinglondonlife]

Name changed regular as my family are on MN and I don't want my posting history linked.
We decided to do Christmas in London this year, we've had a crap year and just wanted to get away. We're staying in a fairly central hotel, have been travelling around and exploring by bus everyday and I feel like I really want to move here. The diversity, having shops open on a Sunday past 5pm, the atmosphere, the ability to choose 5 or 6 different ethnic restaurants on the same street. The public transport is fantastic.

I've been looking in so many estate agents windows and cannot get over the cost of rent/to buy a property. How do 'normal' people live here? I've been friendly with a few of the hotel staff, they've lived and worked in London for 20+ years and have raised their families here, but they are on NMW jobs, so how do they do it? Does everyone get housing benefit?

If you feel inclined please say roughly where you live and how much you pay for rent/mortgage. Also what are the downsides? (Apart from the cost of housing!)

TIA

I live in a very safe area but we had a spate of burglaries & car crime is common

@onlychildhamster I appreciate you saved for your property, that wasn't my point, I've seen you talk both on this thread and another about "Jews" or worse "North London Jews" as if we are one generalised collective and you are speaking on our behalf. Firstly most Jewish people I know would talk about "Jewish people" rather than using the term "Jews" which can be highly inflammatory, secondly we currently face unprecedented anti semitism and I've found a number of the statements you've made play into some very stereotypical tropes. I'm sure you mean well but for every orthodox Jewish family in Hendon there are dozens of other Jewish people living in North London with extremely different backgrounds and experiences.

@BoudecaBains if you have a garage, you probably live in quite a large house (by london standards). that makes you a target. I live in an unassuming 1930s 2 bed flat on the top floor. I have heard from my rabbi of elderly friends of hers in huge houses who have been targets of burglary. I live very near bishops avenue and hampstead garden suburb, i assume the criminals would rather go there...

We’ve always lived in London, and until we retire, I can’t imagine living anywhere else. The variety and ability to do just about anything is incredible, and I love the opportunities to explore for our DC as they’re becoming teenagers

We afford it by having bought super cheap 25 years ago (£50k flat) and then selling and moving to areas that aren’t the big names that everyone has heard of, which we’ve been able to do because of having lived here so long, always zones 2-4. The thing with london is that, unless you’re super wealthy, you’ll always have to compromise on something, but it’s possible to be smart - say, a less salubrious area with great transport, or a nicer area but not near the best school in the borough

We’ve paid up to £1,000 mortgage, no inheritance, just trading up and salary increases, which can be very large in the right industry. We also don’t have private school overheads, as we send kids to local schools despite high earnings

Places I’d look now would be anywhere on the south east crossrail branch, Stanmore end of the jubilee line, Beckton, Plumstead, Charlton, Eltham - not the usual suspects, necessarily

As to gang violence - unless you’re involved, it’s like a different world that doesn’t cross yours, and most kids have nothing to do with. Other than that, crime is like anywhere. Lock your car, don’t walk down dark alleys etc. and central london is always packed, biggest danger is getting ripped off in one of those over priced American candy shops that seem to have sprung up everywhere :)

Since you mentioned Shepherd’s Bush: I live in Acton and a 3 bed apartment is £1800/month. I love the apartment but Acton not so much 😅. Shepherd’s Bush is much nicer!

@BoudecaBains

I live in zone 4, very close to Richmond Park. We bought our house outright 20 years ago after working abroad. We have since spent a small fortune renovating the place. I love our house and I like the area but its not all goodness and light. Crime and vandalism is a problem, even in leafy Richmond. I had to send my daughter to a private school because of the violent bullying she got at her local state school ( on advice from the Police ) and you can't just leave your car anywhere, especially if it's expensive new model. My neighbour has had 4 cars stolen in 2 years. His insurance is through the roof. The place is surprisingly grubby and getting the local authority to do something about it is painful. I also don't find people particularly helpful or friendly, certainly compared with my experience of living in other countries. My eldest daughter is at a London University and my other two are doing their GCSE's so I'm happy to stay where we are for the time being but I plan to move as soon as it's practical to do so. I inherited a property on the Dorest coast from my grandparents, very close to where I grew up, and I spend as much time there as I can. The intention is to relocate in a few years. London has changed so much that I don't recognise it anymore. I won't look back when I leave. My advice is only move to London is you have an income in excess of £100,000 and be very careful where what area you move to. Personally I wouldn't do it.

This is absolute nonsense. I also live in Richmond (zone 3, though, so the less salubrious part). My road is friendly. We know most of our neighbours by name and pretty much all of the others by sight. We talk to everyone in our road and they talk to us. We've not personally experienced any crime or vandalism or problems with cars.

My daughter went to the local primary that everyone goes private to avoid and she was totally fine. There was very little bullying and what problems we encountered were dealt with swiftly and well.

We are very happy here. I would not move to Dorset if you paid me. Would absolutely hate living in the middle of nowhere.

I've lived within a mile or two of where I am now since I was four and you could not pay me to live anywhere else. It's the best. I do appreciate the incomers may not quite get it though.

'Luck' is another reason.

I moved to London in 1991, bought in an undesirable area on the zone 2/3 border in 1999 - which then became desirable after the Olympics, thanks to a ton of shiny new developments and regeneration just down the road. There is absolutely no way we'd be able to afford to buy here now - even with two very good wages coming in.

@LondonMummer I am always willing to learn, thanks. My point however was not that Jewish people are rich; but as they are an established group in north london who bought into that area, their children are logically in a better place to afford to live there compared to someone with similar income but with zero connections to london. It is the same for any born and bred londoner tbh but the difference is that many older londoners often choose to cash out on their equity by retiring to the countryside and their children would also follow them.

However due to the communal nature of our religion, we often have to stay in north london, my DMIL stayed in a 1 bed flat for 7 years until she could afford to buy a house simply because she needed to be within walking distance of the synagogue (and she wasn't even sure at that time if edgware was sufficiently 'jewish' enough in the 1990s, let alone moving outside london). We all have different experiences and i know United Shul is always trying to establish communities in new areas; but we all end up living in the same areas in london/Herts tbh despite being on vastly different incomes/of different circumstances. How we afford it is quite similar to non jewish londoners tbh, but I think the difference is that a higher percentage of us end up staying in London. More of us are making aliyah, i think, but I really don't think thats for cost of living reasons as Israel property prices seem pretty crazy to me!

@onlychildhamster I'm also confused as to why you keep mentioning that you are Jewish. This is a thread about living in London. No one else has said "I'm Catholic and I live in x". Why would they? It's irrelevant.

I genuinely think you mean well and it's great that you have embraced your husband's culture but Mumsnet can be a pretty anti Semitic environment and I cringe when I read posts that seem to add to casual stereotyping. If you're unsure what I'm on about have a read of David Baddiel's Jews Don't Count if you haven't already.

@DeepaBeesKit

Ps to answer your question, we afforded to live there in our twenties by a) living in fairly grotty flats/houseshares in quite grotty areas despite being in relatively well paid professional occupations. We saved as much as we could. b) got on the housing ladder early in 2012 before a big boom. c) we were on high incomes.

My story is basically this too

@LondonMummer cos someone was talking about 7 kids living in a 2 bed flat. I wanted to say most Jewish people don't live like that!

@onlychildhamster sorry cross posted before you'd replied.

But as a final comment, again you say:

"but we all end up living in the same areas in london/Herts tbh "

There are Jewish people in every borough of London and in every county. "We" absolutely do not ALL live in the same areas. Some do, others don't. Perhaps you just don't know any of them! Again, the inference here is ghettoisation and that is SUCH a dangerous suggestion

@BoudecaBains

I’m sorry you’ve had such bad experiences but for anyone reading this thread thinking of moving to London, I have to say I don’t recognise your negative view of living here at all.

I grew up in a leafy London suburb and have lived centrally for a decade. I’ve never been a victim of crime and don’t know anyone who has been, beyond a couple of burglaries - which can happen anywhere. I’m a teacher and while I am very sorry to hear of your daughter’s experiences, the bullying you describe is both atypical and not a uniquely London experience - kids can be horrible to other kids anywhere.

London is a huge city with a wide range of neighbourhoods, all of which will offer a different living experience. Of course some areas are sketchier than others, but I have never in my thirty odd years felt unsafe in my city.

@LondonMummer the OP asked a specific question about Jewish Londoners!

FWIW I am not Jewish and nothing that @onlychildhamster has said has come across to me as creating a negative impression of Jewish people that would give grounds for anti-Semitic interpretation. She’s commented on the economic reality of multi-generations of certain families living in North London, by contrast to people whose parents and grandparents did not grow up here.

Live in zone 5; west London. Work in zone 3/4.
Bought house in 2005- mortgage paid off
6 figure salary plus that of DH; 1 DC
No help or financial support from family
We live a pretty average life. Rarely eat out or have takeaways. Shop in Sainsbury’s. Holiday in Europe. 4 bedroom terraced house.
Before we bought, we rented, again in same area where we bought or further afield.
The only people I know who live in central London are French, younger and probably not that central (Shepherd’s Bush; Clapham). Even significantly higher earners that I work with don’t live in central London.

@LondonMummer yes there would be jews living in every borough. But if you look at the stats, 60% of Jews live in London. in Golders Green in particular, 37.1% of the population is Jewish. I do know a few Jews who live outside London and outside north london as I belong to a central london synagogue but they are still a minority which is surprising considering that liberal jews don't need to live within an eruv and have no qualms about driving or taking public transport on shabbat.

I don't think its a ghetto; cos there needs to be some economies of scale for kosher shops to exist right. Or synagogues. I think its the same for any minority community in London. Harrow seems popular with the indian community for example. . Thats the beauty of london- there are so many diverse communities which make the ethnic shops viable (and makes life a lot more interesting for the rest of us!). Like if there was no Japanese community in Golders Green, I probably would not be able to get great sushi on Uber Eats! I have tried Uber Eats in Stratford Upon Avon (and I don't want to offend anyone from Stratford Upon Avon, but London is much better in this regard!)..

North London, zone 4. Originally we bought a 2 bed flat in '98 for £125k, sold after 2 years with a 30k profit and upgraded to a 275k house in 2000. Dh then got some inheritance which enabled us to pay off the mortgage completely. Then in 2013 we sold for 650k and upgraded to a bigger house nearby for 825k. We have a smallish ( about 65k) mortgage remaining on it but it's worth about 1.3 million now. Crazy.
I worry about my dc and what they will do.

[quote HaveringWavering]@LondonMummer the OP asked a specific question about Jewish Londoners!

FWIW I am not Jewish and nothing that @onlychildhamster has said has come across to me as creating a negative impression of Jewish people that would give grounds for anti-Semitic interpretation. She’s commented on the economic reality of multi-generations of certain families living in North London, by contrast to people whose parents and grandparents did not grow up here.[/quote]
Whilst for most people it seems innocuous actually the association between Jews and money is a dreadful stereotype that has been at the core of both casual and overt racism towards Jewish people for centuries. Like I say, I know it wasn't meant that way but sadly there are lots of people who read statements like this and it just supports that underlying (erroneous) belief. Please do read Jews Don't Count - it articulates the challenge that Jewish people face so much better than I can.

If you want Sunday shopping past 5pm move to Scotland 😂😂

Zone 3, 5 bed house (v small terrace 3 bed with loft extension adding 2 beds). Mortgage £463 pm. I earn £18k (work part time) and OH now earns £70k, was £38k when we bought the house. We bought in an unfashionable part of London which has since gentrified, with modest housing stock. We did not have big hand outs or 6 figure salaries. Unfortunately I don't think there are many if any areas that cheap any more and I do worry about my kids and how they'll afford to live somewhere.

How did we get it so cheap? Bought 2008 for £240k, £30k deposit. Overpaid mortgage, saved hard for loft extension. Remortgaged with better LTV, which brought our mortgage from £1200pm to £650pm. Have overpaid since but less aggressively due to a few mat leaves and nursery fees. Remortgaged very low fixed rate this year which dropped the monthly repayment further. House now worth about £650k.

In answer to your other question, to be on a social housing list you need to prove a long term connection to that council (proof of living there I think 3 years?) then expect to wait 15-20 years. There's more priority for people with ill health or homeless, but they will still have at least a couple of years wait. And there are caps on housing benefit, people often can't find anywhere to rent within the cap. Homelessness and housing poverty is a real issue in the city, with many living in Houses Under Multiple Occupation.

@Therealrealitystar So in answer to your question. If you earn less than six figures in the capital and didn’t on the property ladder many years ago (when things were ‘normally priced’ - don’t have family money and don’t want to share with strangers. Then find somewhere else to live where you can get to the capital to enjoy its fabulosity once a month or so.

Well yes, or you can rent. Works for me, but then I've owned property (outside London) for over twenty years, and the longer I do the more of a.pain in the arse it is and the more I wonder why we're so obsessed with doing so. But that's a different thread .

Oh I totally agree. DH & I absolutely love London and want to live there. We had a budget of ~£850k which would buy something nice but so far out of Central London (think Zone 3 onwards) unless we wanted a flat or a shoebox.

We figured that the amount of time it takes to get into Central London, we might as well live somewhere nice with good train links so that’s what we did.
We ended up moving somewhere not too far away from London in a wonderful home, 4x an hour train s services to Marylebone/Euston in as little as 50 minutes and the station is only a 7 minute walk away from our home.

This thread is fascinating to me. I have never lived in London but been for theatre, sports events, Olympics and just days out probably 3 or 4 times a year. I am in Midlands and can get train to London Euston in 50 mins. I live in 4 bedroom house, 3 bathrooms with enormous garden that we had loft conversions to get bedroom 5 and 6. I live in village close to large town with plenty to do. Mortgage is only £700 pcm and only 2 more years to pay as overpaid for almost 10 years now. Almost everyone on the thread is saying they would never live anywhere else. Can I ask what is it that would make you prefer to live in cramped accomodation rather than a more spacious home with large garden and you would have more money left over for holidays and activities? I am not being goady, but just amazed by so many responses saying they would never move out of London but at same time many saying they have little room for living or most money is spent on rent or mortgage. I am finding it hard to understand.

@Hairbrush123

Oh I totally agree. DH & I absolutely love London and want to live there. We had a budget of ~£850k which would buy something nice but so far out of Central London (think Zone 3 onwards) unless we wanted a flat or a shoebox.

We figured that the amount of time it takes to get into Central London, we might as well live somewhere nice with good train links so that’s what we did.
We ended up moving somewhere not too far away from London in a wonderful home, 4x an hour train s services to Marylebone/Euston in as little as 50 minutes and the station is only a 7 minute walk away from our home.

That would get you a nice semi detached 4-bed home where I am in SE London. And there’s a fast train to London Bridge that takes 10 minutes. much of south london, particularly south east, is still relatively affordable. I’m not sure where you looked that 850k would only get you a flat or a shoebox but that is simply not true!