To ask how you afford to live in London?

[seekinglondonlife]

Name changed regular as my family are on MN and I don't want my posting history linked.
We decided to do Christmas in London this year, we've had a crap year and just wanted to get away. We're staying in a fairly central hotel, have been travelling around and exploring by bus everyday and I feel like I really want to move here. The diversity, having shops open on a Sunday past 5pm, the atmosphere, the ability to choose 5 or 6 different ethnic restaurants on the same street. The public transport is fantastic.

I've been looking in so many estate agents windows and cannot get over the cost of rent/to buy a property. How do 'normal' people live here? I've been friendly with a few of the hotel staff, they've lived and worked in London for 20+ years and have raised their families here, but they are on NMW jobs, so how do they do it? Does everyone get housing benefit?

If you feel inclined please say roughly where you live and how much you pay for rent/mortgage. Also what are the downsides? (Apart from the cost of housing!)

TIA

@Goldenbear lol I shared a room with my sister until I was 19 and during university holidays until I was 22 and got married. My family home (overseas) had 7 bedrooms and only 2 kids. Even with grandparents, we had several spare rooms. I was happy and didn't know anything better.

Having your own room is a relatively modern concept and alien in many cultures. My mum didn't even have her own bed when she was growing up. She would have thought it weird that her two daughters needed their own rooms!

So even mixed genders and hitting puberty? My two are 14 and 10 and have had to share a room for 3 nights as my Mum has visited and I think my eldest is exasperated as he wants to chat with cousin about stuff of his age whist they play fifa online and DD is playing with toys still in the room! Isn't that the challenge in terms of age. My two shared in a flat until my eldest was 10 and obviously that was fine and allowed us to stay central but the teenage years and child are so different.

I don’t know anyone who shared a room as mixed genders. I do know someone who rigged up a sort of folding hinged platform bed above a door in a bedroom to accommodate another child. Always seemed a bit dangerous to me, but the teen seemed happy enough.

@JustUseTheDoorSanta

they cost so much more to live in than other places they are very similar to elsewhere BECAUSE of their proximity to London when the reality is the proximity to London doesn't make the suburb more exciting or interesting to live in than places miles away from London. People travel to work in London, the proximity does actually matter for those who work in London. More importantly, even though you say "Many of them are lovely", it clearly isn't what you believe. There's better shopping in Kingston or Watford than Guildford or Luton. If you're a cyclist, a rower or a runner then there are lifestyle options you can't get elsewhere. The big park areas of Epping Forest, Lee Valley, Richmond Park or the routes up the Thames can't be matched by areas of farmland where the land isn't accessible and there are no safe pavements or paths. Amenities vary, but of course people travel into London, to other outer zones and even outside London; the accessibility of all areas varies depending on where you live. However long you've lived in London, you have more exploring to do, because you are missing a lot.

I don't know why you're so offended by what I've said! I've not said anywhere that the suburbs of London are horrible or unpleasant. I don't know where you've got that impression from. You've read into my words something that just isn't there.

I have explored the suburbs of London, extensively. I am fully aware of the variety and the benefits of living in suburban London for many people. I grew up in the suburbs and lived there for 18 years. I have friends who live in South, South East, South West, North, North East, North West London suburbs who I visit regularly. I don't know why you're so concerned about my knowledge of the suburbs or consider me to be 'missing out'. I'm not missing anything. I know what's available and I enjoy visiting the outer suburbs occasionally when I fancy something different. I really enjoy visiting Osterley House out in Hounslow, for example, as well as Kew, Richmond and Hampton Court. I've taken students on residentials to Epping Forest, so I know how lovely it is. I grew up running around Abbey Wood and Footscray Meadows in South East London. I love Highgate Woods and Hampstead Heath. But would I want to live in any of these places? Personally, no. I don't want to spend half an hour plus on a train or tube to get to the West End. I don't want to spend my weekend mooching about an identikit high street that could be anywhere. That's just my preference. I am not judging anyone who enjoys that as their lifestyle. For me personally, the inflated living cost of outer London suburbs is not worth it when considering the time it takes to get into London. If I couldn't afford to live in central London, I would rather live in the centre of a different city I could afford rather than a suburb. That's because I spend 95% of my time in the city centre, and as someone who's childfree, all my leisure time is my own and I love arts and cultural activities, so being within spitting distance of galleries, museums, theatres etc. is essential to my happiness. My personal lifestyle preferences are not meant to be taken as any judgement on suburbs in general or people who live in them.

@Goldenbear no, mixed genders would be quite unusual. Isn't that why a family home is generally considered a 3 bedroom property? To allow for the eventuality that there might be multiple mixed gender children. I really want a 3 bed flat (so I can have a study) and it has always confused me why there are so few 3 bed flats in the UK and 2 bed flats are the norm. Surely they are more practical...

We live in a mansion flat in zone 1. Bought 20 years ago when prices were relatively affordable, and sold my first flat which gave us a good deposit. I wouldn’t live anywhere else. I can walk to work and have everything on our doorstep. Not sure that the kids will ever leave home though!

@MadameFantabulosa how many bedrooms does your flat have? Intrigued as you are the first poster I have seen on mumsnet where you moved from 1 flat to another flat! I am planning on doing the same. But I have never seen anyone do that!

[quote onlychildhamster]@EnidSpyton I lived in zone 1,2 and 3, and I find I don't really see any difference in my enjoyment of central London? It doesn't take long to get in. Living in Bloomsbury wasn't that great because of the noise and Southwark was honestly soul-less.camden was nice but I would be worried about the drugs if I had a child. I like where I am living now best- you can get to central London quickly but it's also quieter. I think zone 5 might be different, it takes ages for me to get to zone 5.

Why people live in London suburbs- cost. They can't afford the nice parts of zone 1/2, particularly places like Kensington and primrose hill. But yet living in a well connected commuter town like St Alban's and Guildford is ££££ when you add up the cost of fares and the mortgage. The incremental cost of a ticket from zone 3 or even zone 4 isn't too high.[/quote]
Zone 5 is a whole different ball game. I HATED living in zone 5 because the public transport was dire. One train into London every half an hour that was always delayed and so slow in the morning. Always stuck outside London Bridge for 10 minutes waiting to get in. Going to London was something that had to be planned and organised and timed. And a night out meant running to catch the last train or needing to sit for nearly two hours on a night bus.

Some Zone 5 areas with tubes might be better. But South East London zone 5 with nothing but southeastern railway to rely on - it's quicker to get into London from beautiful spots in the Kent countryside on the fast train than it is from there, and the housing is cheaper and the surroundings far more attractive and interesting. My sister lives in Sevenoaks, which is very pretty and surrounded by amazing countryside. It takes her 30 mins to get into London on the fast train and she paid the same for her large house as a friend did for their house in the suburb where we grew up. A suburb where there is literally nothing to do and it takes over 30 minutes to get into central London.

2 FTE - both decent jobs, pays well. South east london.

Look at areas like Twickenham, kingston, new Malden, surbiton, South Wimbledon, all very easy in but still in zones and you can still get some reasonable (ish) deals on rented , and all are nice areas with good local shopping and plenty of greenery . My 23 year old son rents a really nice 2 bed , 2 bath , with nice lounge and a lovely kitchen in Belsize Park for £1700 plus bills, they do it by it being a ‘couple’ in one room and him in another—and both have their own bathroom - they all are old friends. He found that rents in some not very great areas were not that much different- it was more a matter of being on the case and viewing quickly and building up a good relationship with 2 agents who knew exactly what they needed. It’s not cheap, but then neither is living in places like St Albans or Guildford or Brighton and then paying for big commutes on top.

I live in zone2/3- have lived in London for nearly 30yrs and was fortunate to buy a flat in the 90s, my DH did the same and still has his flat that he rents out which is in zone 2. We live in a 4 bed house in a sought after area of London. 15mins train to the city, I love London and will never move. My DH and I do earn well too I should add , however wouldnt be able to buy where we live now if we were now looking to buy. My DC love it too but I cant see how they could possibly ever be able to buy here unless they end up in high paying jobs and we give them a deposit

Also have a look at Tooting- my son lived there for a bit- I really liked it- great markets, funky , multicultural in an integrated way and good parks and a quick drive/public transport into Wimbledon

Lots of good part buys too in Wandsworth/Tooting areas if you fit the criteria and don’t mind new builds — I know someone who has done a 25% on a 2 bed one in Wandsworth , rent and a £140,000 mortgage comes to around £1100

[quote onlychildhamster]@MadameFantabulosa how many bedrooms does your flat have? Intrigued as you are the first poster I have seen on mumsnet where you moved from 1 flat to another flat! I am planning on doing the same. But I have never seen anyone do that![/quote]
I moved from one flat to another flat. I think that’s quite common. Most people will not be able to afford a house in London, outskirts or not. Or it’s a trade-off - flat in the centre, or house in the outskirts.

@onlychildhamster we’ve got three double bedrooms and two bathrooms. It’s a good sized flat and plenty big enough for four of us. Previous flat was 2 bedroom and I think we’d have killed each other living there! We also have a shared garden between four flats. In reality we seem to be the only people who use it, although we do sometimes arrange to have drinks there with our neighbours. The DDs were weekly boarders outside London and we often had a house full at weekends if friends wanted to come into London for shopping, cinema, theatre, concert, clubbing, rather than schlep back out to Surrey.

I’ve also spent a significant chunk of my adult life living in Europe and it’s perfectly normal to me to live in a flat in the centre of the city. Houses are definitely for the suburbs!

I know someone who has done a 25% on a 2 bed one in Wandsworth , rent and a £140,000 mortgage comes to around £1100

I think those schemes aren't great unless you are desperate to stay/paying very high rent. A few people I know have sold for less than they paid.

[quote onlychildhamster]@MadameFantabulosa how many bedrooms does your flat have? Intrigued as you are the first poster I have seen on mumsnet where you moved from 1 flat to another flat! I am planning on doing the same. But I have never seen anyone do that![/quote]
I moved from one flat to another! Went from a one bed, to a two bed, two bath with a loft and a garden when we had DS.

I think it's very weird how Mumsnet gets all freaked out by bringing up children in flats. LOADS of families all over the world live in flats, it's not that unusual.

@SundayTeatime cool. I guess I spend too much time on mumsnet where a private garden seems to be a prerequisite for having a child. Most people I know in London do live in flats unless they are older. And the people I know who moved out to buy houses tend to have spouses/partners who wfh or worked locally. I literally don't know anyone who both work in central london and thought it was a good idea to then move to the sticks ( which is my situation). And if you want to be in a decent school catchment in London (even in zone 3/4), a house would be at least £1 million or more likely £1.4 million (and it would be quite small) so I would have thought flats would be the only option for many families (where both parents work in central london). I do have a friend who is buying a house in romford for the same price that I paid for my flat but romford is in zone 6.

@EnidSpyton - Saying "preference" is silly, everyone has different preferences for city / village / beach / etc, but you've said several times that you don't see the value in paying to live in those areas. Value is a judgement. I was explaining that there are reasons why people want to live in some of those areas, that are related to being near the centre of London but are also about the areas themselves, because clearly you didn't know what people who lived there valued or you wouldn't question it. I'm not sure what's so tricky to understand.

I live in a 2 bedroom social housing house with a garden and driveway in zone 2. Rent is about £550 a month. I consider myself fortunate, even though some people I work with feel sorry for me because I don't own my house.

I got social housing because about 20 years ago I was homeless (statutory not street) with a baby.

I earn about £55k and am single. I do short term contracts so my income fluctuates, and my rent would be covered by benefits if I was ever to be out of work.

My almost grown up daughters share a bedroom. We have been on the waiting list for 3 bedrooms for years. One is going to uni next year, so the youngest will have a room to herself in term time.

People I meet through work (mainly white, middle class from the southeast) have bought houses with help from parents and have 2 salaries in their household.

People I am friends with (mix of ethnicities, some born in London to second/third generation immigrant parents, some immigrated to the UK from other countries, mix of m/c and w/c jobs) some live in social housing, some have done right to buy, some bought on the open market cheaply years ago.

Don't mind flats at all and that's all we could afford when we had our first child as we were still in our 20's in fact I worked in politics so we were going to rent in Westminster in 2008 so I could return to work easily and not worry about being miles away from my baby but DH wasn't keen. I can't imagine having a load of DS's friends staying over on mass regularly and being over the moon about it if we didn't have the space. I want a bigger house for that reason as we live in a small house and it us overcrowded. I would say though the train fare from Brighton to London for my DH is massive. You have to be on good money to justify it so I could see how London suburbs is a good option.

We are very central - DSs old school was just over the river. When we had the transport strikes a few years back it was a bloody nightmare getting him to and from school and me getting to work (which is walkable from home) . Commuting is fine - when it’s working ok!

@CurtainTroubles pre-Covid I knew plenty of people who cycled across London who lived in outer zones. Others where always shocked by the people who did it as they weren't all the stereotypical lycra wearing white men between 20-49.