To ask how you afford to live in London?

[seekinglondonlife]

Name changed regular as my family are on MN and I don't want my posting history linked.
We decided to do Christmas in London this year, we've had a crap year and just wanted to get away. We're staying in a fairly central hotel, have been travelling around and exploring by bus everyday and I feel like I really want to move here. The diversity, having shops open on a Sunday past 5pm, the atmosphere, the ability to choose 5 or 6 different ethnic restaurants on the same street. The public transport is fantastic.

I've been looking in so many estate agents windows and cannot get over the cost of rent/to buy a property. How do 'normal' people live here? I've been friendly with a few of the hotel staff, they've lived and worked in London for 20+ years and have raised their families here, but they are on NMW jobs, so how do they do it? Does everyone get housing benefit?

If you feel inclined please say roughly where you live and how much you pay for rent/mortgage. Also what are the downsides? (Apart from the cost of housing!)

TIA

@seekinglondonlife I have a very cheap PureGym a 10 minute walk from me, a council run lido a 20 minute walk, David llyods also nearby. A tennis club across the street. Free tennis courts in a nearby park. I have a spin studio within walking distance too which offers teen classes too.

There are all sorts for all budgets. The thing with London is that there are very few uniformly rich areas. I remember feeling shocked when looking at a town in Bucks (Beaconsfield) where they didn't have a gym in the town centre or near the station (which you would expect as it is a commuter town). You would need to drive to the gym in a less expensive part of town. I think this was because most of the rich people in that town had their own gym equipment and used personal trainers (lots of listings for personal trainers in the town centre!). That is a problem if you aren't rich. But in London, you are never too far from the 'budget' option even if you are living in Notting hill.

Very interesting discussion, I grew up in London but family was not one of the lucky ones whose parents bought when it was cheap. Parents were forced out of London due to high rents and I left because of my post grad training. I now could quite easily move back to London especially if I focused on private work but currently choose not to. I actually live in Winchester and currently looking to buy having bought my first property in the Midlands which I rent out.

I most definitely agree with London about diversity being a minority myself it’s always a concern being in the Home Counties hence I’m still in the searching for the right area phase. People have said why stay in London in cramped place but I suspect those saying that are not minorities so don’t have the same concerns as I for community in the Home Counties. Also Londoners should realise that a lot of places outside of London are now considered premium so actually more expensive than London probably because of the very white middle class lifestyle they offer with the opportunity to “dash” into London for the odd theatre trip once a week.

I don’t actually find it too expensive to live here

Neither do I. Housing costs are the main expense...but if that is manageable then day to day cost of living is as much as you make it to some extent. Our mortgage is fairly small on our four bed house ..less than £500 a month. Like I said earlier, bus travel is free for kids...their schools are walking distance anyway. We have four nice parks within walking distance. Council swimming pools. Lots to do. A big choice of supermarkets so I can shop around. If we ate out in Mayfair restaurants every night, it would be pretty expensive but obviously we don't do that!

I think living in London is very doable on most salaries.

We’re fortunate as we had a large deposit that came from inheritance to buy our first flat.

We live in zone 3 East London in a 2 bedroom ground floor maisonette. We’re hoping to buy a 3 bedroom house in the same area soon.

Total bills including mortgage and food is £1500 a month. We both earn around £40k each, so we have a decent amount leftover each month for living and savings.

I’m not originally from London but I wouldn't ever consider moving back to the countryside as it feels like Groundhog Day. I love the variety that London has to offer. We can just jump on the tube and explore an area, try new food, visit exhibitions so easily.

One main advantage is not needing a car. We have never had one. Children’s activities, like Brownies and gymnastics and dance and swimming, even ice skating, all within a ten-minute walk or short bus ride, and buses are free for children.

@seekinglondonlife

Thanks for the replies, all very interesting. I can see why people compromise on space for the lifestyle. For those saying it's a great place to bring up young children - are there many leisure centres, because I don't think I've seen one. Someone up thread said they swim or play tennis daily, are these private clubs or cheap council run activities?

Yes, there are lots of leisure centres

Where I live (SW London), there are 3 within a 15 min, and also a primary school with a pool which is rented to a swim school company for lessons at weekends, and a secondary school with a pool which is rented to swim clubs in evenings and weekends

All the local parks have tennis courts, cricket nets, netball courts which run lessons, plus football, hockey etc and there are also a few private tennis clubs tucked away on side streets plus some fancy gyms with tennis clubs

We also have 3 riding schools within a 20 min drive which is more than I had growing up in rural Somerset..!

We lived in Clapham/Balham/Streatham in large one bedroom flats in which our DD had the bedroom and we slept in the sitting room. We did this for 12 years, despite the fact I was on a good salary just so that we had money left to enjoy our lives. It was fine and a worthwhile sacrifice from my perspective as we made the spaces work for us. I recommend Streatham / West Norwood / Tulse Hill / Norbury for cheaper big properties. However Shepherd’s Bush is great but prices will have inflated because of Westfield. Maybe look at Ealing and Hammersmith and stops a little further on on the tube from there. A lot of people like Hanwell for example. Ex-Council properties are also cheaper but you need to spend some time day and night in the exact area as they can vary in terms of how safe you will feel.

I am fortunate enough to have a good-sized house and garden in London, but in all honesty we could live in a spacious flat and we would have much the same life; the parks, amenities and green spaces around us 5mins away on foot are so good that we don't even use our garden that much. I consider my area the best of every world; it's a village with strong community spirit where we know lots of people and great green space with the anonymity and amenities of London still right here. I find Home Counties life suffocating; it's so white and built around cars and boring. There is just no substitute for the endless energy and opportunity of London and I thrive on it. I would also challenge the idea that London isn't diverse economically; as PP have said, every single area has council and HA housing mixed in with privately owned, even Knightsbridge and Mayfair, and every state primary school in the city, IME, is both ethnically diverse and has a range of income levels. If you pay for private school from day 1, you can pretty much create a wealth bubble, but you have to try - and many people don't pay for private because the state schools here are really good.

If you like tennis, I still recommend Streatham as there are lots of facilities around that area. There is also a big pool and ice rink in the leisure centre.

Oh yes, and there are lots of leisure centres and pools. Sadly our closest council centre closed during lockdown as refurbs were planned, but there are like 3 more close by and my DC have swimming lessons at the nearest one, and there are also other private ones.

@seekinglondonlife

Thanks for the replies, all very interesting. I can see why people compromise on space for the lifestyle. For those saying it's a great place to bring up young children - are there many leisure centres, because I don't think I've seen one. Someone up thread said they swim or play tennis daily, are these private clubs or cheap council run activities?

We have both near us. We live within walking (longish) distance to 2 council owned leisure centres with others a short drive or bus away.

We're memebers of a David Lloyd which is a car drive away but still only 10/15 mins.

Schools are great for primary near us. My only bug with the secondaries is that our LA loves single sex schools. They literally all are and we have a boy and girl. We're thinking private for secondary so we can send them to the same school.

@Ohwhere2021 I think there are home counties towns which are ethnically diverse like Milton Keynes and reading. The problem is those areas are not pretty imho. When you think of a home counties town, you think of a chocolate box village and I have yet to find one that is ethnically diverse. I think it doesn't exist. Cambridge could count, I think, it has a large Chinese population (not sure about the other groups outside of the university students/academics) but it is quite far from London (as well as an expensive commute) unless you have a job in Cambridge. And it has london-esque prices too so it's not really a solution either.

However in London, you can find an area which has the words 'good schools', 'leafy', 'nice parks', 'fast train into central london', 'affluent demographic' and 'ethnically diverse' in the same sentence.

I’ve lived here for 20 years, I lived with friends in flats til my late 20s and then met my husband. He owned a flat here already, in an zone 2 area where house prices had gone insane, and sold it for more than double what he’d bought it for, so we had a huge deposit for a house in a a nice area in zone 3. My mortgage is half what my rent used to be.

@onlychildhamster

Yes I entirely agree funny Reading is actually one of my choices for this very reason and because I hear it has some very good grammar schools. People laugh and say Reading over Winch but I wouldn’t want my children to be the only minority child in a classroom. Having said that I understand the independent/public schools are better for minorities in Home Counties but are extremely expensive like Winchester College.
Back on topic please suggest those London areas!

@Londonr

Why do people think you either have to be a high earner to live in London or that if your a lower earner that people must live in overcrowded run down dodgy areas . That's not the case. With help lower earners can live in reasonable homes as well.

It's not that I think it's impossible, but i've always wondered how people do it. I've a friend that teaches in zone 2 and I know all the kids she teaches aren't from well off families. And I also know when know what she pays to rent key worker accommodation and when I look at Rightmove that we'd struggle to live there. I always think dh and I are very average earners (in real life; we're poor compared to the average Mumsnet wage!) and I'd just like to know how other normal earners do it. Like how do they prioritise their money to make it work. How does their lifestyle look differently to mine, because it must be amazing having all of those places on your doorstep, but do you still get that sense of community that used to exist?

I find it fascinating!

My cousin left London earlier this year because he was still in a house share in his mid 30s. He has relocated to Scotland where he is originally from which in his line of work has only really become possible since covid, as so many companies changed their working conditions it means they now offer work from home with minimal contact days. He travels to London once, sometimes twice a month.

@seekinglondonlife Ha, me too. Actually, that's not entirely true. I was lucky enough to be left property worth a lot of money but death duties and unpaid taxes/other debts on the estate swallowed all that up. What little that was left once divided between me and my siblings wasn't enough to use as a deposit either.

I grew up in London and have never been able to afford to buy property here. I rent, albeit in the Square Mile. Like another poster, I opted to live here as council tax is cheap(er), services good, and I can walk everywhere I need - I can't recall the last time I used public transport on a day-to-day basis, so that saves a chunk of money. I don't need a car either, so there's no petrol, tax or insurance to pay. Many of the people I know who live around me are quite normal people. They don't come from great wealth but they either have well-paying jobs and/or they bought property at the right time. (Where I live was once hugely undesirable but now is a prime location.) My landlady bought the flat I live in the 80s from someone who had purchased it through 'right to buy'. She paid mid-low five figures for it and it is now worth £950k which is ridiculous as it is so tiny.

Like how do they prioritise their money to make it work. How does their lifestyle look differently to mine

No need for a car, so no car parking charges, petrol, MOT, insurance etc. Public transport is cheap for adults and free for children. My DC could go to their activities by themselves at a younger age. They could go to and from school by themselves at a younger age. Lots of activities within walking distance. Several supermarkets within walking distance, including Lidl etc, so cheaper shopping. Council tax generally cheaper than many other parts of U.K. People live in smaller properties, so cheaper bills. But some things are pricey - going to the cinema, for example. That would be a rarity. And maintenance on the house - tradespeople are expensive. Even getting a window cleaner is too expensive for us.

@ohfook
We are London poor but nationally above average earners. We live in a 4 bed semi in zone 4 SW London, not Richmond!! Tbh the only reason we can afford it has been inheritance. Inheritance from London properties as I am born and bred London. Without this I would have moved out probably to the south west of England.
Where we live very much has a strong sense of community. I know the majority of people on my street, most by name, some just to say hello and have small talk with. We al pitch in and help each other out. It's lovely. It's a more down to earth part of London, not affluent but not poor either. Making the most of all on our doorstop? not as much as we should. We do go to the museums a fair bit. We may go to the theatre in the west end once or twice a year, but will normally go to local theatres which are a lot cheaper. But my kids absolutely love going into central London. They love that they live here. We also have a lot of fab things to do on our suburban doorstep too. But I far prefer living out of central London as I can get out if London very easily and despite been born and bred here and loving London I actually far prefer my days out in the country side.

How does their lifestyle look differently to mine, because it must be amazing having all of those places on your doorstep, but do you still get that sense of community that used to exist?

I don't know about lifestyle but growing up our road had a real sense of community & I would play out often with kids from my road.
Where I live has a strong sense of community but it's changed, the street is more transient, less families & more older higher earners who aren't in so much. At Christmas the streets near me are dead which wasn't the case when I was young.

I would also challenge the idea that London isn't diverse economically; as PP have said, every single area has council and HA housing mixed in with privately owned, even Knightsbridge and Mayfair, and every state primary school in the city, IME, is both ethnically diverse and has a range of income levels.

Primary school catchments/high house prices definitely have an impact. The demographics of places like Brixton & Tooting have changed quite a lot since I was young.

I think London prices have lagged compared to other areas over the last 1-2 years so I expect that trend to continue for a bit as remote working will have had an impact.

@Ohwhere2021 my top choice would be Muswell Hill; Coldfall woods and Ally Pally, Lots of good primary schools and Fortismere and I think it's as diverse as any part of London. At least I have never felt out of place there. Of course it is too expensive for me so I bought in east Finchley which is nearby and has cherry tree woods and good schools too- Martin and archer and lots of local parents really rate Highgate primary and also faith schools like akiva and st Theresa. Plus walking distance to Highgate woods. I still have hopes of moving to MH one day though!

Further afield, Pinner and high barnet have good schools too but they are zone 5. I think Ealing Broadway is really buzzy and has a beautiful park near the broadway; the schools seem fine to me. I don't like the plane noise in Kew so I think that rules out Richmond for me and its likely to get worse now that we have left the EU as the EU had strict standards on noise pollution. But the schools are apparently high performing.

The thing is London is overall very diverse so you can pick the nicest area within your budget and you will be fine. I think that is freeing in a way.

Londoners have spent a total of 55 billion on homes outside the city. This is likely to be the trend going forward. I would rather not join them and sit out the madness. I think its a bit of a bubble honestly and people are overpaying. London house prices has been stagnant since 2015 in a lot of parts and especially for flats; rents are likely to stagnate too

I read this, I think it might be a cycle. In the 90s many parts were not desirable as they are now.

Fair point @gettingto; as mentioned I lived in Brixton during a period it appreciated massively, gentrification is definitely a thing - but it doesn't create complete wealth bubbles due to the housing mixture, usually.