To think the issue of poor white boys failing at school is overlooked?

[hibbledibble]

They have the worst outcome of any group.

I highly recommend watching H is for Harry, documentary film which is available currently on Netflix, and highlights this issue.

It's about a boy with SEN, including illiteracy, and his experience in a mainstream school over two years.

It brought tears to my eyes. It was great to see how much progress he made in small group teaching, but sad that his difficulties in class meant him eventually being excluded from the school, and there was not much information given as to what happened to him following this.

It's heartbreaking that this boy could have done really well with ongoing intense intervention, but that the barrier to this is funding. It seemed at the end that the school gave up on him, as he just spent time in the nursery.

I would be curious to hear others views.

@KenDodd

Actually I think we should come at this from a completely different angle. We really, really need to end the job snobbery and poverty wages. All this talk about 'getting a good job' bollocks, what we need is dignity and respect and survivable wages in EVERY job. IMO places like Macdonald's are brilliant employers, for one, they'll take the kids who, for whatever reason, didn't do well at school, and offer them a career ladder and these jobs should be looked at as real opportunities for people. Instead teachers threaten poor students with this sort of future, it's no wonder a life of unemployment looks more appealing. There was even a thread on here a while ago asking if youd date a bin man ffs.

Well said.

@EightWheelGirl

But 'white privilege' is pretty much useless to the conversation then if we're going to say the homeless guy who sleeps in a bin has white privilege over Barack Obama. Certainly when it has the effect of making a lot of people assume that the homeless guy needs less help due to having some form of privilege.

It's only been brought up because several PP's have said 'yes you're right OP, this is why white privilege is nonsense'. Which is not only irrelevant to this topic, but the incorrect understanding of what it means.

I also love this bit, which comes after a sentence saying they chose to focus on white children, but that they acknowledge that other ethnic groups face challenges.

"The Prisoner’s Education Trust (PET) highlighted the disproportionate number of young people from ethnic minorities being excluded and taken into custody, including those from Gypsy/Roma and Irish Traveller, Black Caribbean and Mixed White and Black Caribbean backgrounds.46
Evidence also highlighted that there are performance measures on which pupils from ethnic minorities, particularly FSM-eligible Black Caribbean pupils, perform similarly or less well than disadvantaged White pupils.47"

"https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5802/cmselect/cmeduc/85/8504.htm#:~:text=The%20Prisoner%E2%80%99s%20Education,White%20pupils.47

’It does make me laugh that the flagship report into this, by the government, which is highly politicised, recommends "family hubs" to be used to support families who's children are on FSM in order to improve outcomes.’

’We used to have those, what were they called? What happened to them?’

@LondonWolf

Oh save us from an earnest, simplistic explanation of critical race theory please! I knew the thread would go now this road as soon as I saw the title. CRT gained popularity in American west coast universities back in the 70s/80s.

It’s gained huge traction granted and is currently the theory de jour, often parroted on MN, but it an academic theory that you can choose to believe or not, like any other, it is NOT fact and actually has its roots in Marxism.

White working class boys lack of attainment is the discussion here even if it is so often ignored because it’s a pesky distraction and opposing argument when discussing the ever more mainstream tenets of CRT.

Yep I knew which way the thread would go too. 'Oh yeah loads of white boys I have spoken to have said 'I'm gonna get a job wiv me dad when I leave school, and can't be arsed to get an education.' Then in the next breath that poster says 'these boys don't even know what their dad does for a living.' What an utter crock!

It's a fact that white boys are not motivated at school, and don't get anywhere NEAR the same amount of help, support, and concessions as their Asian and black peers. Same with white men. As I said, they are the most fucked over, and uncared for demographic. And that is a fact. And no-one is doing anything about it.

And all the 'yeah but Asian and black blah blah blah' comments don't change the fact that white boys and men (mostly working class ones, but also middle class sometimes too,) are royally fucked over every day, and have been for a couple of decades.

As for the poster bleating 'give some examples, bet you can't!!!' .... Examples have been given on this thread, if you could be bothered to look. And the fact that anyone says that, shows the level of extreme ignorance from some posters who assume white = privilege and wealth and a better easier life.

As I know how this thread is going to continue to go, and I don't intend to argue with the narrowminded and the goady, I'm out.

@MojoMoon

To be an HGV driver requires sufficient literacy to pass a driving theory test, pass the advanced HGV driving theory test, read and follow delivery instructions for multiple locations, read, understand and be able to run safety checks on the vehicle.

It also requires the ability to turn up to work on time, communicate with your colleagues, speak to customers/clients in an appropriate way, problem solve, make decisions, follow rules.

The boy in the programme cited was illiterate. He would not be able to become an HGV driver without learning to read a lot better. But he also would likely struggle with all of those soft skills as well.

There is rightly a focus on poor white boys' literacy levels but that alone won't fix things. If their home environment/culture doesn't encourage/develop their soft skills - or possibly is outright hostile to those skills - it's very difficult for them to compete in the jobs market.

Poor white girls tend to develop more of those soft skills. There are lots of poor white girls helping taking care of siblings, family members, putting the tea on, chatting with gran etc - while boys are much less likely to be given similar chores or be as involved in the "chatting" of a family.
Their interactions with male friends involve gaming, physical activities etc - again, less likely to have social skills of girls from the same background.

Poor white women have higher employment levels than men so they also much more likely see their fathers/uncles/older brothers being unemployed while female relatives are more likely to work part or full time. Following dad into a trade is less likely than a girl following her mum into retail work/care work etc.

Work for people with no qualifications in some areas is much more plentiful in "female jobs" like retail and care work than very physical jobs that men have an advantage in. So the work that is available to them is "women's work". Why bother to learn anything at school if you don't see a path ahead?

I think there is often a reluctance of the fathers to push their sons to do better at school in part because this would essentially acknowledge that they themselves could have done better/earned more/been happier if they were better educated. That's a hard blow for their pride.

Immigrant parents are much more comfortable with the idea that their lives would have been better with better education - hence they are much more comfortable to push their kids.

I haven't seen the documentary in question but I'm talking wc boys in general.

I've worked with a Hungarian, a few Muslims, a few British Jamaicans, a Sikh who had only been in the UK a few years. A few Romanians. Probably others I can't think of. If they can overcome the language barrier then I think a fair number of white wc boys could manage.

Just watching it now.
Poor Harry :(
The teachers are so upbeat and so focused on pushing aspiration but it must sound so hollow to Harry. He knows he's being asked to do things he can't do.
And he no doubt carries all the baggage of having tried and failed in the past.
Knowledge builds on knowledge step by step. If you haven't grasped phonics, a lesson on Grammer is just wasting your time and making you feel bad. And a chirpy teacher attempting to cheerlead you through it is just more pressure you don't need.

"It's a fact that white boys are not motivated at school, and don't get anywhere NEAR the same amount of help, support, and concessions as their Asian and black peers"

Even the report into this issue, which was highly politicised, doesn't say what you have stated.

Got any evidence? No.

@JohnHuffam1812

"It's a fact that white boys are not motivated at school, and don't get anywhere NEAR the same amount of help, support, and concessions as their Asian and black peers"

Even the report into this issue, which was highly politicised, doesn't say what you have stated.

Got any evidence? No.

'It is a fact because I say it is' 😂

There should probably be a greater focus on teaching basic comprehension skills. And maybe free dictionaries.

" have been given on this thread, if you could be bothered to look. And the fact that anyone says that, shows the level of extreme ignorance from some posters who assume white = privilege and wealth and a better easier life."

No examples have been given of white boys being given fewer opportunities than their counterparts of other ethnic minorities.

No examples have been given of white boys failing to achieve because of the colour of their skin.

You are "out" because you can't back up your inflamatory and incorrect statements.

:)

Haven't RTFT but I don't think this is about throwing money at the issue per se. I've worked with many families within this demograph and the main problem is lack of parental aspiration. If you have grown up being told that going to "smelly school" and listening to "teachers who don't know sh*t" is a complete waste of time, no amount of intervention is going to significantly help. The children from BAME families in exactly the same economic group do better because their parents care and "education is the key" is instilled within them from an early age.

Parental attitudes and support at home were very obvious during home schooling. Its really sad to witness.

As a brown female.

From an early age there were two things instilled into me-
1.the only reason we came to this country was to get a good education for you. You've got family back home, but they are languishing on the farm getting the servants to do everything. And slowly decaying. The farm was making less money and getting smaller as it passed through the generations. We could have moved back, I would have been fine in my lifetime, but by then time of the grandkids cos of inheritance, the farm wouldn't have been able to support the next generation.

1. When it comes to getting a job there is a hierarchy. If its between me, a brown male, a white girl and a white male- the employer would pick the white male. Then between the white girl/ brown male and then me.

If I want the job I've gottta be better than the white girl/ brown male. And a whole lot better than the white male .

I was taught this this Primary school. And at school there were loads of asian girls who said they didnt bother learning cos they wouldn't be allowed to study further by their families and would be married by the time they finished school.

I think family expectations play a big part.

Agree massively with all statements on parental attitude being the biggest issue. I’ve run some programmes for this group of students and so many of the parents were either so hard to work with, or so uninterested it was like pulling teeth. It was a really big contributing factor to the programmes being pulled to be honest.

I also think schools tend to have lower aspirations for these students as well (possibly because they know that’s the situation at home) and then it’s all a self fulfilling prophecy. I know it’s not all schools, and it’s maybe not even a majority but it’s definitely present.

"Certainly in the US, Asian privilege is now a reality as Asian males have better financial and health outcomes than white males"

This is another fantastic example of bad use of data.

Using Asian alone, includes East Asian, South East Asian, and South Asian and then compares them as some monolyth to the white population.

However when you do this, you then find that the American Asian group has the highest amount of income disparity.

This is highlighted, and shows when you factor in that the median income for Asians is distorted by high incomes for Indian households and others who tend to be newer, and highly educated immigrants.

There are a very large number of "Asians" who's households have below the overall US average household income.

Well, you don't really get groups for poor white boys in the way you do for 'women in business' and black entrepreneurs etc. Ever seen a shortlist for white working class men?

Groups for women in business are set up by women in business. Groups for black entrepreneurs are set up by black entrepreneurs. So whose fault is it if white working class men don't set up groups to help others like themselves up the ladder?

Very good point @crackofdoom

I also don't see how these things would improve attaintment at GCSE for white boys, on FSM who live in deprived areas.

Johnhuffman1812 thank you for your work on this thread!

@crackofdoom

Well, you don't really get groups for poor white boys in the way you do for 'women in business' and black entrepreneurs etc. Ever seen a shortlist for white working class men?

Groups for women in business are set up by women in business. Groups for black entrepreneurs are set up by black entrepreneurs. So whose fault is it if white working class men don't set up groups to help others like themselves up the ladder?

Its funny. There's this programme called 'The Apprentice' and on it is this dude who was working class. And he does have a soft spot for candidates who remind him of himself and his background.

Can't recall a similar thing for other groups.

I do think there's support out there - it just isn't labelled in a similar fashion. Thats not necessarily a bad thing.

I do think there is limits to what teachers can do in classrooms in the face of parents who actively work against them in certain cases. Kids who aren't told you can suceed at anything, aren't going to have belief in themselves and think its worth putting the effort for because there is no incentive.

You have to set up goals and targets in a variety of different ways to the one we have now. You've got kids who get told education isn't work bothering with or told its not the parents responsibility to take the initiative with their education, so why would they do the same themselves? Education isn't valued and thats the heart of the problem here. Kids learn this from others.

The kid who is told they can be an olympic lawyer who is an MP in their spare time is going to have very different motivations.

In my previous civil service job the active and successful Women's staff network were asked to help set up a Mens network. There was only 1 male volunteer (who was an active ally in the Women's and BAME networks). No one else "manned up" for the task so Women volunteered for that too. Needless to say I didn't want to do the wifey work for that cause... I do think there is a wider class issue though.

Over the last 5 - 6 years I have seen far more mainstream press articles bemoaning the chances of working class white boys in education than I have ever seen talking about any other group’s lack of attainment.

Concerned discussion on women and girls’ lack of attainment tended to be covered in feminist publications, “women’s” pages or the specialist education press. Similarly with issues for minority ethnic groups.

But in recent years there have been headlines about poor white boys doing badly in the Times, the BBC, the Mail, the Guardian, the Sun, etc. all implying it’s a problem (I.e. not just reporting the results and as happy about the groups that do well as they are sad about the ones that do badly.). This has been building since girls started to make up ground on exam results decades ago. The press went from reporting that boys got X% of As and girls got y% as though it was of little consequence to a sudden amount of concern and a push for changes in evaluation techniques as girls started to do better than boys.

Now that there is a way to be bothered about not just boys but White boys it’s a political issue that gets even more attention from people who didn’t really give a shit about educational inequality before. And, as PP points put, they misreport the research finding giving a false impression that a much broader section of white men are hard done by, and often vaguely imply any efforts to help women or ethnicity minorities are unfair, when that’s not the case.

How do we break the cycle? What made the previous generations of working class white boys undervalue education? How do we reach the next generations?

More broadly the education system in the UK needs to value far more highly the vocational trades that none of us can do without. I don't think it does that and there is a shocking snobbery amongst some teachers in relation to the manual and vocational trades.

I value my electrician, plumber, decorator, cleaner, hairdresser, mechanic very, very highly. I couldn't do without them. My children's state school teachers in an outstanding primary were actually pretty dire, had very robust political views shared too freely with the school community and weren't too hot on spelling, grammar and maths. But it was fine because we couldn't plug the gaps until we pulled the dc out of the state system.

Sadly in less leafy areas I suspect the teachers are even worse and so the cycle goes on.

Mentoring- well trained older kids and works v well

Ds(17) had done well in a low performing school. He is a prefect and for the last 5 months involved in mentoring pupils in their first year of secondary using a framework they have been taught. He is doing the best he can but to be honest he is getting more learning out of it, supported by me, than the 3 pupils assigned to him. It is a big ask for a 17 year old to successfully fill the parenting gap.

From what I have seen with ds's friends that are struggling, they were all mostly ok when they started secondary, but without support and encouragement at home started to fall behind in the first year or two as the work ramped up, that impacted their self esteem and confidence in their ability, they couldn't catch back up, started to act up and then it all fell to pieces.

I am not convinced the schools or teachers can do much more within school hours, it is these kids home situations that are the root of the problem where their parents won't or can't due to other pressures support them fully for lots of different reasons.

It is much much more prevalent in boys from deprived areas that feed into his school, but not exclusively, some from "better" areas also struggle when parents dont value education or are too busy with their own careers/lives to recognise early enough they need to provide support.

We knew this and worked to counter it when I started teaching in 1993, or shortly after.

To make a real difference, the community needs motivating. It's a disaffected sub-group (poor whites), from which many community members reject establishment organisations such as 'education'. White boys will do well in school when poor white men work, study, respect law and order, maintain positive relationships with their sons and encourage them to enjoy school and take advantage of learning opportunities.

And no, I'm not a typical middle class MNer. I'm not (and wasn't) clutching my (non-existent) pearls that poor people don't conform to middle-class expectations. They're 'my' boys and I want them to do well.

Just noticed upthread, 'free dictionaries'. Schools I worked in (over a twenty year period) did that. Free dictionaries, free laptops, free uniforms, anything to plug the gaps. We couldn't give out 'free stable parenting' or 'free decent housing' (check out the effect of poor housing on the educational prospects of poor children. It's shocking). Not in our gift.