To think the issue of poor white boys failing at school is overlooked?

[hibbledibble]

They have the worst outcome of any group.

I highly recommend watching H is for Harry, documentary film which is available currently on Netflix, and highlights this issue.

It's about a boy with SEN, including illiteracy, and his experience in a mainstream school over two years.

It brought tears to my eyes. It was great to see how much progress he made in small group teaching, but sad that his difficulties in class meant him eventually being excluded from the school, and there was not much information given as to what happened to him following this.

It's heartbreaking that this boy could have done really well with ongoing intense intervention, but that the barrier to this is funding. It seemed at the end that the school gave up on him, as he just spent time in the nursery.

I would be curious to hear others views.

Companies are paying £50k+ for Class 1 drivers and this would IMO be a much more realistic option for a lot of young guys struggling in education with learning disabilities and possibly families that don't prioritise education. Moving forward they could be the next generation of transport managers or even HGV mechanics, which also pays well (our mechanics are on £41k basic with decent overtime paid too)
And this is another massive issue. That unmotivated, poorly educated white boys jobs are paying this much.

They don’t all have learning difficulties just because they’re poor, white and male. Isn’t that the point, many aren’t doing well when they should be.

That said the focus on boys is a worry. Too much and girls who need support are going to get overlooked.

My husband (deputy head) did some research on this any they are the least likely people to go to University also.

@WonderfulYou

As a teacher I’m told my focus should be on white boys and do lots of training to combat this situation.

But it is something that always makes me feel some kind of way.
I think it’s because they don’t have the same challenges that girls and other races do, yet I’m meant to put more effort into helping them than those who are already at a disadvantage.

I will of course do anything I can for all of my students but they have to take some responsibility themselves too.

Exactly my point.

Because they're white you dismiss their challenges, when realistically they don't experience much privilege. For example, there are areas up north where the Indian families running the local corner shops are often amongst the richest families in the neigbourhood.

@hibbledibble

100 million per cent agree, but it's a taboo subject, as we are not allowed to say white people are disadvantaged in any way. White, working class males (and lower-working-class males,) are the most fucked-over demographic these days. Not only boys, but men also. Up to around 60 years old anyway.

People from ethnic minorities get a lot more support.

And as for the 'this has been an issue for working class white boys for about 15-20 years' rhetoric on here, that further reinforces the argument. They have been fucked over for 15-20 years and no-one is doing anything about it?! Why not?!! Any other demographic would be given help and support.

And no, I DIDN'T vote Tory. Never have.

The major issue is parental engagement and aspiration for their kids.

In my experience there are not many kids from homes where there is no support or aspiration who do well. I say not many because there are a handful of kids who I can think of who have gone against the grain of the family / situation and have engaged with school, attended well, worked really hard and broken the cycle.

If you’re from a family where parents are not interested in education, have no books or interest in helping you, have no aspirations for you to do anything but “get through it” then the chances are you will leave school with not much to show from it.

Money is a factor of course, but we have a very significant number of first generation immigrant families in our school and they are absolutely desperate for their kids to do well. I distinctly remember a dad asking me at the year 7 parents’ evening if his daughter was on track to be a doctor. And while we might laugh at that question, or even wonder why he was asking that sort of thing about his 12 year old, I think it goes to show the determination for their kids to succeed that is a huge part of the upbringing of a number of kids, despite lack of money.

Schools do have an impact and could have a lot more with more money, but 17 out of 24 hours in a child’s day is spent with family and friends and if those influences are not positive about the value and importance of education then that will detract hugely.

Dare I say that white middle class feminism doesn't really help the situation with its focus on CEOs and other concerns of the privileged. When it talks about male privilege it's usually referring to middle class male privilege.

What support are ethic minorities getting that poor what’s families aren’t?

It’s a huge issue but I don’t feel it’s ‘overlooked’, there has been so much research and many published reports on exactly this, which have been in the press.

@Sk1M0u53

What support are ethic minorities getting that poor what’s families aren’t?

Well, you don't really get groups for poor white boys in the way you do for 'women in business' and black entrepreneurs etc. Ever seen a shortlist for white working class men?

@EightWheelGirl

Because they're white you dismiss their challenges, when realistically they don't experience much privilege. For example, there are areas up north where the Indian families running the local corner shops are often amongst the richest families in the neigbourhood.

This in spades. Boils my piss it does. The vast majority of white people I know are not over-privelged in any way, and many Asian and black people/families I know have as much (and often more) advantages, and assets.

The term 'white privilege,' makes me roll my eyes so much, that they spin into the back of my head. As you say, many white people are no more privelged than many Asian and black people. There's always some white leftie who shouts 'racist' if anyone DARES to say this though. They're so predictable and tedious, and they're best ignored.

Actually I think we should come at this from a completely different angle.
We really, really need to end the job snobbery and poverty wages. All this talk about 'getting a good job' bollocks, what we need is dignity and respect and survivable wages in EVERY job. IMO places like Macdonald's are brilliant employers, for one, they'll take the kids who, for whatever reason, didn't do well at school, and offer them a career ladder and these jobs should be looked at as real opportunities for people. Instead teachers threaten poor students with this sort of future, it's no wonder a life of unemployment looks more appealing. There was even a thread on here a while ago asking if youd date a bin man ffs.

@EightWheelGirl

Well, you don't really get groups for poor white boys in the way you do for 'women in business' and black entrepreneurs etc. Ever seen a shortlist for white working class men?

This. ^ Well said.

[quote LittleRoundRobin]@hibbledibble

100 million per cent agree, but it's a taboo subject, as we are not allowed to say white people are disadvantaged in any way. White, working class males (and lower-working-class males,) are the most fucked-over demographic these days. Not only boys, but men also. Up to around 60 years old anyway.

People from ethnic minorities get a lot more support.

And as for the 'this has been an issue for working class white boys for about 15-20 years' rhetoric on here, that further reinforces the argument. They have been fucked over for 15-20 years and no-one is doing anything about it?! Why not?!! Any other demographic would be given help and support.

And no, I DIDN'T vote Tory. Never have.[/quote]
You’ve said ethnic minorities get more support- can I ask what the specific extra support they get in schools is? I didn’t get anything extra so maybe this has come in in the last few years? Would be interested to know the specifics, I’m a bit out the loop with support in schools.

Also you only mentioned ethnic minorities getting extra support. What about poor girls? Non poor white boys? Non poor white girls etc?

I also don’t think it’s a taboo subject, no ones told the OP off for her post, just given suggestions.

@EightWheelGirl As I say though, the ones who come on poking and prodding and goading, are best ignored.

We’re talking primary children not adults in business. What advantages are ethnic minorities getting?

But poor white boys shouldn’t be steered to these jobs. More should be going to uni and be succeeding in aspirational careers.

This in spades. Boils my piss it does. The vast majority of white people I know are not over-privelged in any way, and many Asian and black people/families I know have as much (and often more) advantages, and assets.

The term 'white privilege,' makes me roll my eyes so much, that they spin into the back of my head. As you say, many white people are no more privelged than many Asian and black people. There's always some white leftie who shouts 'racist' if anyone DARES to say this though. They're so predictable and tedious, and they're best ignored.

Certainly in the US, Asian privilege is now a reality as Asian males have better financial and health outcomes than white males. I've only seen one discussion on it and the lefty woman debating the other got really pissy and told her to stop using the term 'Asian privilege'.

@Sk1M0u53

But poor white boys shouldn’t be steered to these jobs. More should be going to uni and be succeeding in aspirational careers.

What's more aspirational about sitting at a desk than being involved in a technical job?

Imagine if we said girls should be steered away from traditionally male jobs. There'd be outrage. Most self employed tradesmen and builders I know earn more than the typical office worker.

A little education on sen in teacher training coupled with educated Senco would go an awfully long way.

Unfortunately it's the blind leading the blind, teachers do no sen training so when a child is presents with dyslexia or adhd unless by fluke they do kmow something about it, they won't know what it is or how to help it?

Senco usually have no knowledge of sen needs, no tricks up their sleeve of what to do etc, how to help a child with dyslexia learn, they just call people.

The school itself and councils are notorious for not knowing or understanding the law around ehcp, and because they have to provide funding they usually put parents off getting one

We mistakenly think schools are on our side and want our dc to flourish and learn when actually it's ignorance mixed with "coasting" to get the child through and then let somewhere else deal with the problems.

By secondary school, and years of being locked out of education your also probably dealing with self esteem issues and all sorts.

Just some tweaks to teacher training, getting Senco actually educated and a culture change would really feed fundamental, monumental change into the system and pay dividends later on for society as a whole remembering that a huge % of people in prison for instance have literacy issues.

But shouldn’t they be achieving the same as other groups in all roles.

@EightWheelGirl

I still don't understand the focus on better educating these lads when there are more realistic short term strategies. For example, huge problem of HGV driver shortage with a seriously aging workforce (average driver 55yo).

Companies are paying £50k+ for Class 1 drivers and this would IMO be a much more realistic option for a lot of young guys struggling in education with learning disabilities and possibly families that don't prioritise education. Moving forward they could be the next generation of transport managers or even HGV mechanics, which also pays well (our mechanics are on £41k basic with decent overtime paid too).

Agreed but these are never seen as jobs to be aspired to which is a shame. I think when we look at education it shouldn’t just mean academic smarts it should be about developing skills to work toward a viable career that you can live off including the options you’ve mentioned.

I remember being in school and teachers saying things like “if you don’t work hard you’ll end up working in Sainsbury’s etc” and it made these jobs seem like things to avoid where as there’s lots of progression within supermarket roles and like you said as HGV drivers.

Hope attitudes change in the near future

When DS started secondary he struggled to read, really struggled with getting anything on paper and is an appalling speller. A few weeks into his first term I had a meeting with his SENCO who stated that her aim was to keep DS ‘ticking along’(which basically meant keeping him happy) until he went to college where they would have more funding to give DS the support he needed. It was all about funding, they were happy to keep DS ticking along as that was the cheapest option.
With schools having attitudes like that I can see how children can get left behind, particularly those that don’t have pushy parents that are able to advocate for their children.

@FallonCarringtonWannabe

Companies are paying £50k+ for Class 1 drivers and this would IMO be a much more realistic option for a lot of young guys struggling in education with learning disabilities and possibly families that don't prioritise education. Moving forward they could be the next generation of transport managers or even HGV mechanics, which also pays well (our mechanics are on £41k basic with decent overtime paid too)

And this is another massive issue. That unmotivated, poorly educated white boys jobs are paying this much.

Can't work out what you mean by the last sentence.
Are you saying HGV drivers are unmotivated and should be paid less?

@Sk1M0u53

But shouldn’t they be achieving the same as other groups in all roles.

In an ideal world, yes. But then we'd also have to address why there aren't as many middle class people succeeding in trade jobs and why most seem to go to uni instead.

I think idealism doesn't really help in situations where it's unlikely to solve the problem. Getting a Class 2 HGV license in under a week and then being on £35k within a few months is perfectly possible with a few thousand £ of funding and puts the recipient in a stable financial position and in an industry where work is plentiful. Unlike most professional jobs, you can walk out of one job and have another within days, without worrying about references and painting a professional resume etc.

Somebody who is on £35k then has a lot more options in terms of further training and career development. Can pay for educational courses or maybe even drop a couple more grand on their crane tickets and bump salary up to £50k+.