Is using "Father Christmas" vs "Santa" a class signifier?

[Flapjacker48]

Upper/upper middle - use "Father Christmas"

Working/lower middle - "Santa"

The "Santa" we use in the UK today is almost an original European export to American and has come back as a tackier and vulgar Santa.

Santy when I was growing up in Ireland. Some times Santa but pretty much always Santy.

I literally never heard anyone ever say Father Christmas in my entire childhood & only read about him in Enid Blyton style books.

I use Santa and Santy with my own dc

Father Christmas sounds v stuffy to me! And like he's likey to only bring a miserable stocking with a book, an orange & a packet of crayons in it...

Santy on the other hand brings the whole sheebang & always did- does so in this house still even to the teens!

@MarshmallowFondant Just like the southeastern English people are mocking, or labelling as "bad or wrong" people who are brought up with Santa rather than Father Christmas?

Unless you think the "tacky and vulgar" in the OP is some sort of compliment?

And they're wrong, as I've already pointed out earlier in the thread. As have many others. People from the southeast of England are not one (ignorant, classist) hivemind, many of us would think the OP is wrong too, especially working class people, considering the OP seems to be implying working class is something negative.

Or do you really think it's working class Estuary or Cockney speakers (as they are the people I was sticking up for in my comment) who are obsessed with middle class people's superior credentials compared to the rest of us oiks?? Southeast England is not entirely ignorant middle class class-obsessed RP speakers. We're as varied as any other region, with as many opinions and views. I don't know how that's so hard to grasp.

Santy is a fabulous man altogether

@Trashypanda Because, growing up, it was pointed out to me that draw-ring is "common". And of course, sounding common is the worst thing you can be.

RP speakers say something more like "droing".

The American Santa Claus is probably based on the Dutch ‘Sinterklaas’ (Saint Nicolas).
A very old tradition in the Netherlands and anything but vulgar.

[quote IVflytrap]@Trashypanda Because, growing up, it was pointed out to me that draw-ring is "common". And of course, sounding common is the worst thing you can be.

RP speakers say something more like "droing".[/quote]
I don’t think it’s generally considered ‘common’, though? There was a university study a few years ago that considered the speech of British newsreaders speaking RP and found that 90% used some form of intrusive r.

It’s a rhoticity issue more than anything, I’d have said — I’m an Irish rhotic speaker, so I naturally use a mini-glottal stop in ‘drawing’, and inserting an ‘r’ into ‘law and order’ or ‘Africa and India’ would feel very unnatural to me.

Working class here from London, always called him Father Christmas when I was small, still do although my kids are more inclined to call him Santa.
Still don't know what it has to do with class though, gotta love Mumsnet

[quote Flapjacker48]@Bilingualspingual I have a circle of Scottish friends in Edinburgh (not incomers), middle class and all use Father Christmas.[/quote]
I’m Scottish, from Edinburgh, and I’ve never heard a single person call him Father Christmas. I’m working class but I have friends and colleagues who are posh/well off/middle class. I’m not saying your friends don’t say that, I’m just saying it’s very uncommon in Scotland.

[quote IVflytrap]@Trashypanda Because, growing up, it was pointed out to me that draw-ring is "common". And of course, sounding common is the worst thing you can be.

RP speakers say something more like "droing".[/quote]
So you think adding in an erroneous R is “common”.

That is your opinion, but please don’t ascribe it to others, or presume that others share your view.

To me, saying “draw-ring” sounds bad because it is wrong and has nothing to do with class.

working class Estuary or Cockney speakers

My only acquaintance with the latter is Eastenders, and I have no idea what the former sounds like. Like many other people, for the simp,E reason they are not local to us.

I doubt you would be familiar with the differences between a Morningside accent versus an Ainster one, so I wouldn’t use them as a yardstick.

Where I grew up in England we all used the term Father Christmas. Moved to Scotland as an adult and it's Santa here.

I feel terribly old fashioned saying Father Christmas nowbut I detest santa

@Ibane That's interesting, the draw-ring thing was a big issue for one or 2 of my non-rhotic RP-speaking teachers (about on the same level as the hate for th-fronting), but on the other hand I'd be surprised if they weren't using the linking R between words... like the whole vanilla rice cream thing. Drawing had to be draw-ing ("droing"), which I find hard to say.

@TrashyPanda No, the opposite, I think it was shit for them to shame people for their accents, which is why being called common for how I spoke used to (and still does) get my back up, and is why I'm perhaps too hypersensitive to the general mumsnet hate for Estuary accents...

(I disagree that draw-ring is wrong, because enough people say it that it's an accent feature and I don't agree with accent or dialect prescriptivism But ultimately that's your opinion and I can accept it even if I don't agree).

I don't agree with accent or dialect prescriptivism

I’m none too fond of language being used as a social demarcator. Back when I studied English Language at uni, we were taught about “social” variations, by which they meant class. Funnily enough, Scotland was seen as particularly egalitarian in this respect, as just about everyone used dialectal variant words like “the brew” (unemployment benefit) and “ashet” (serving plate).

I can remember when BBC news actually subtitled a group of Glaswegian folk that were being interviewed. That caused so much outrage.

Father Christmas etymology
This would suggest FC is older and pagan
Father Christmas

[quote PAFMO]@thatsallineed

Succinct, to the point, and WRONG. As many on the thread have confirmed.

@PilesEdgeworth. Certainly would seem so. It definitely scars them in some bizarre psychological way that turns them into anti-American idiots believing that if they don't say it, it doesn't exist.[/quote]
Just found this thread again. And since I don't much like being talked at in capitals, I thought I'd reply.

Not wrong, As many others on the thread also confirmed. And as follows:

Point 1. I grew up on a council estate in Essex in the 60's/70's. Thoroughly common-as-muck working class, and surrounded by thousands of others. We all called the chap with the presents 'Father Christmas'.

We knew he was also known as Santa Claus, often in books, but we didn't call him that. The name of Santa Claus was seen as something European - and since languages travel, it would explain why a lot of people in other regions of the UK would historically use Santa Claus. It also explains how 'Santa' got to the USA in the first place. Immigrants from all over Europe took it there.

Point 2. The 'Santa' we know and love in his present incarnation is American. The image was invented by Coca-Cola. So yes, 'Santa' has come over from the USA to the UK, and is used much more often here now, as a consequence of that.

So is using FC or S a class signifier? No, of course it bloody isn't.

And what does your Father Christmas look like? The last time I looked he bore a striking resemblance to our Scottish Santa (who was here long before the Coca Cola ad)

@Hospedia

Santa is not an American import, its the other way around. Irish/Scottish/Northern English/Dutch people took Santa Claus/Sinterklaas with them during periods of mass immigration to American.

I'm from NE England, he has always been Santa and even Santy.

Exactly. Love it when people try to be snobby and end up showing themselves up

Point 2. The 'Santa' we know and love in his present incarnation is American. The image was invented by Coca-Cola

No it wasn't:

Saint Nicholas went through many transformations in America: Sinterklaas became Santa Claus, and instead of giving gifts on December 6, he became a part of the Christmas holiday. In the 1820 poem "An Account of a Visit from Saint Nicholas" by Clement Clarke Moore, he is described as a jolly, heavy man who comes down the chimney to leave presents for deserving children and drives a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer. The cartoonist Thomas Nast added to the Saint Nicholas legend with an 1881 drawing of Santa as wearing a red suit with white fur trim. Once a kind, charitable bishop, Saint Nicholas had become the Santa Claus we know today.

www.biography.com/religious-figure/saint-nicholas

Coca-Cola began to use the red image of Santa on advertising in the 1930s, when the company hired artist Haddon Sunbloom to create a character of Santa Claus for use in festive campaigns. The idea was to ensure people continued to drink Coke during the winter months, as the drink was associated with warm, summer days.

The red suit was a convenient feature of the character as it matched the advertising colours of the company.

theferret.scot/fact-check-coca-cola-red-santa-claus-christmas/

Was father Christmas growing up and he lived in lapland,working class family,just how it was.

Point 2. The 'Santa' we know and love in his present incarnation is American. The image was invented by Coca-Cola. So yes, 'Santa' has come over from the USA to the UK, and is used much more often here now, as a consequence of that

Nope, that’s totally wrong.
If you had bothered to read this thread, you would know that.

I have a very old Santa decoration that predates the Coke advertising. He is known as “Old Santa” and was bought in 1926, the year my mum was born. He is wearing a red, fur-edged tunic, cap and trousers.

So no, Santa did not come to the U.K. from the US, for the simple reason he was already here. Just because the use was not widespread in England does not negate the fact that Santa was the norm for many of us.

@thatsallIneed

Don't know why you're quoting me back at myself and referring to class demarcation as I've never once mentioned it. Nor would I. As every post I've ever made both in Pedants' Corner and here about this tripe will testify.

You've already been told the Coca-Cola thing is an urban myth, so I won't rub salt in your Dunning-kruger inflicted wounds, but I would advise a bit of reading and learning about things before making yourself look so silly with your absolute declarations.

@IVflytrap, the Royal Family are interesting when it comes to intrusive R (not so much linking R as everyone does that really) If you listen to the Queen's early speeches, she doesn't do it (intrusive R) but she does nowadays, and the younger royals have always done it. Interestingly Kate is arguably much "posher" /RP than William, as she's had the elocution lessons and training that he never has. Even more noticeable are the vowels. The Queen was very much "hie nie brine kie" up to about 20 years ago, but is much more "street" now. Relatively speaking.

@TrashyPanda

Do you ever get the feeling you might be shaking your fist at the sky?

I don’t think it’s generally considered ‘common’, though? There was a university study a few years ago that considered the speech of British newsreaders speaking RP and found that 90% used some form of intrusive ‘r’.

A bit of a tangent but as we’re on the topic of RP, I was very surprised to learn that RP English didn’t exist until after the US was colonized, with some English people essentially creating a new accent to sound fancy, compared to the colonists.

American English, in some regions, is more traditionally English than British English is.

@MissCruellaDeVil

Father Christmas = British

Santa = American, only used in recent years as it's what we see American movies / social media etc.

Absolutely. I stand corrected.

Obviously, prior to the Blessed Union that "brocht Scotland into being as a country worth a thocht", our forebears were too preoccupied with either poking berries up our blue-painted noses or running around the hills throwing rocks at haggis to have developed a thriving 2 way trade with Northern Europe.

Not just in goods but in language, culture and ideas that may, just conceivably, include the tradition of Santa that predates Vocal bloody idols by several centuries.

How could I have been so wrong?

I'm pished. Vocal bloody idols should be Coca bloody cola. (Need a face palm emoji).