Teachers!

[MsFannySqueers]

So retired/ex teachers are being asked to consider returning to the classroom because of possible staff shortages in the New Year. Is this something you would do?

I dunno. I'd pay good money to watch them try and manage for a day. Would make great reality tv.

@Hercisback

Because children desperately need some assistance here before their educational progress is damaged beyond repair.

Such rhetoric.

There's a lot of arguments to be had about what constitutes "progress" in education, and now is not the time or place.

I'm also not sure how a babysitter (because that is what these volunteers will be) can provide much in the way of education. This isn't to deride supply staff. They work incredibly hard in crap circumstances, but because they don't know the students, the lessons aren't great. Often they are given holding work until the class teacher returns.

The national exams are in May. That's why teachers are looking at progress. As to the value of supply teachers, heads of department keep a little black notebook with the names of good people and hopes that he gets in first and bags them because a babysitter is no use to us.We have no time for looking at our navels contemplating the nature of progress and heaving great sighs over its incomprehensibility. There are exams to be sat.

As to the value of supply teachers, heads of department keep a little black notebook with the names of good people and hopes that he gets in first and bags them because a babysitter is no use to us.

My whole point is that a babysitter is no use.

Lucky for your HOD. I can't think of a good maths supply teacher we've had in the past 8 years.

I'm a teacher in case you hadn't noticed . More than aware of exams coming up with 3 exam classes. I still think this DfE idea is shit.

HOD here. No disrespect to supply teachers - what many have to put up with in schools is terrible - large double classes crammed in together, covering any and all subjects outside their specialism, kids who play up because it's 'just a supply', lack of support from SLT for behaviour issues. Don't even get me started on pay and conditions......

However, I do laugh at the idea of keeping a list of names of good supply in my little black book. I have not had a decent supply teacher in my subject for years. Even specialists applying for permanent posts are thin on the ground, and supply teachers in my subject area are as rare as hen's teeth. We have had long term supply in to cover several maternity leaves and long term sickness in my dept over the last decade. Not one of them was any good. Following the most recent changes to the GCSE and A Level spec the supply teachers really struggled with the content. I had no choice but to timetable them onto GCSE classes, but they just did not have the up to date subject knowledge to do it properly.

I have spent hours and hours trying to support long term supply cover. I provide everything - lesson plans, lesson materials, assessment materials. I support with marking, assessment and moderation - all of this and trying not to let my own classes suffer. I am exhausted.

The point I am trying to make SammyScrouge is that much as I would love to be able to get together a list of good supply to choose from there is no one to put on the list. In the last year having ANY supply in has been nothing short of a miracle. I have had to resign myself to hope for people to cover lessons who can at least manage behaviour.

It IS a babysitting service. My exam results do suffer as a result. I wish I lived in a part of the country where good, reliable subject specialist supply teachers were in such abundance that I could keep a list of them to chose from.

Also, "getting in first" is not really a solution to the wider problem, is it?
Not everyone can do that, clearly, and as Herc says, what if there isn't anyone suitable in the first place?

@CallmeHendricksGingleBells

Also, "getting in first" is not really a solution to the wider problem, is it? Not everyone can do that, clearly, and as Herc says, what if there isn't anyone suitable in the first place?

What is the solution, do you think? To catching the children up, I mean.

The solution is wholesale society overhaul, which won't happen. Extra hours tuition don't (and won't) really help. Extra tuition only works with good communication and alignment with the class teacher.

Ok, but to the immediate problem? Do we just write off two years of education?

Asking retired teachers to come back and work as supply isn't about catching kids up, it's about keeping schools open. They are needed as a warm body in front of the class because absence of that is causing year groups to be sent home and schools to close, and it will be worse with omicron.

This period of time is something the children will need catching up from.

What is needed is massive investment in education. An extra teaching assistant with every class in primary. More permanent teachers in secondary.

Any ideas such as longer school day, rearranging holidays etc are attempts to use current teachers for free. As the call to retired/ex teachers has shown, there is zero goodwill in the system. And that is the fault of the government. They need to work massively to fix the broken relationship.

Not many students missed an entire two years! The majority have had most of last year and some of the year before. Even then, some sort of education was provided to do at home.

That's what I mean by the rhetoric. Instead of a sensible conversation about education, we are telling kids they'll fail forever because they have missed two years. That's not true.

@2toastornot2toast

hilarious as if!!! Cant even get supply staff this term and we were throwing money at them. Ex and retired teachers also would struggle to be up to date on the constantly moving nature of teaching.

In case anyone thinks this isn't true, I was offered £1000 a week to do supply at one college.

But I'd have had to stay in a hotel.

I've done supply where I have to stay in a hotel but at the time I could claim that as expenses, but the government decided it 'wasn't fair'.

So for me to do supply, that isn't near home, I need to cover my travelling expenses.

Pumperthepumper

What do you think should be done?

@noblegiraffe

Asking retired teachers to come back and work as supply isn't about catching kids up, it's about keeping schools open. They are needed as a warm body in front of the class because absence of that is causing year groups to be sent home and schools to close, and it will be worse with omicron.

This period of time is something the children will need catching up from.

What is needed is massive investment in education. An extra teaching assistant with every class in primary. More permanent teachers in secondary.

Any ideas such as longer school day, rearranging holidays etc are attempts to use current teachers for free. As the call to retired/ex teachers has shown, there is zero goodwill in the system. And that is the fault of the government. They need to work massively to fix the broken relationship.

I completely agree. I would add that wages for all those working in schools (and particularly support jobs, like TAs) need to be considerably better paid to draw people in, particularly at the moment when there are safer career options to choose. The government should also expect to pay for any overtime they want teachers to provide.

I completely understand why people would not return. I’ve taught for almost 3 decades in what are deemed good schools and challenging ones. The job can be thankless. Many parents and carers do not understand the personal sacrifices made and unappreciative. Pupils can be the same. From many there is a sense of entitlement. From some, simple hostility. Many are ill equipped to deal with life and lack resilience. It is sad to see. More times though I feel sorry for the pupils that could really do with my time and energy instead of me dealing with behaviour. And this is even in the good schools. I’ve been sworn at (was called a c* at least once a week in one school) more times than I could ever estimate. The problem with many jobs like teaching (social services the same) is people have this idea that we are public servants so that allows them to abuse, blame and ridicule as they see fit. Coupled with the micro management, many tasks that are about someone somewhere justifying their job, poorly qualified SLT and long unpaid hours (many people are shocked when I say I’m only paid until 3.20 and not for ‘holidays’ - this should be known a lot more than it is but it wouldn’t suit) teaching conditions are poor. So no, I’m not offended when people who have left complain how bad it was because they are more than likely telling the truth. I’m sure there will be lots of people who disagree with my comments but I speak from experience - I’ve taught for almost 3 decades and I’m still going strong with a good reputation. I know I’m fortunate - there’s not many people that are in my position. It also means I’ve seen what the profession can do to people particularly the younger ones, many of whom decide life must have more to offer & leave after a few years

@Hercisback

Not many students missed an entire two years! The majority have had most of last year and some of the year before. Even then, some sort of education was provided to do at home.

That's what I mean by the rhetoric. Instead of a sensible conversation about education, we are telling kids they'll fail forever because they have missed two years. That's not true.

I should have said ‘disrupted education for two years, on top of a system with notoriously terrible attendance rate’ then. And actually, we are seeing a huge amount of children becoming deskilled - pen control, for example. Dexterity, being unable to use scissors, difficulties in peer attachment, language issues, not to mention the mental toll of two years of covid.

But you must agree that children have missed a substantial amount of education surely? Or no, they’ll all be fine?

@FrippEnos I think if I was in charge and not just an anonymous voice on the internet, I would be encouraging trained staff back too. And when they get there, they have a plan of work to follow, set by the kids’ existing teachers (* I can see where this conversation will go) to try and bridge the gap. It’s only babysitting if you think that’s all we’re good for, and we’re not - how many people on this thread have said they’d return to the classroom if it meant no extra garbage?

They want then to register with supply agencies? And therefore relinquish a large part of their pay packet?

Or are they asking them to volunteer?

Pumperthepumper

(* I can see where this conversation will go)

If the SoW are in place this shouldn't be an issue. As long as you get the right teacher in the right department. More often its an issue for the more practical subjects where machines or tools are used.

Tracking, Marking and setting work have been extras for supply teachers which they get paid extra for, this could be an issue.

I think so many teachers leave the profession completely broken and disillusioned with it, that they'll have a hard time enticing them back.

Teaching needs to be a nicer, more rewarding job basically. And that needs enormous investment.

What is the solution, do you think? To catching the children up, I mean.

In my opinion, the government doing more or at least doing something to keep the existing teachers actually in their classrooms. Both from dealing with health and safety properly, vaccinating us sooner and finally supporting teachers who stay in teaching, rather than keep throwing good money after bad on the ITT front.

I can only speak as a Secondary teacher in England, in a subject with very few specialists because we have the potential to earn way more with better working conditions outside of teaching and never having seen the same supply teacher twice (who can rarely teach the subject anyway) the DforE’s current focus is the wrong one for giving children what they need, in my subject.

Pumperthepumper

IMO any short term solutions will become a long term sticking plaster and nothing will get resolved.

on top of a system with notoriously terrible attendance rate
For whom?

My year 13 missed the end of year 11 and didn't sit GCSEs. They had one period of lockdown teaching in y12 (attendance in one class was excellent; in the other two, the students who did not very much do not very much face to face either). During any periods of self isolating, I was teaching them online. They're not "behind" except in experience of exams.
My year 11 have had a similar experience. They missed the end of year 9 but we don't start GCSE until year 10 so they've missed no content. They will sit reduced exams anyway.
Year 7 and 8 are our biggest problem years - but it's skills they're lacking.

@FrippEnos

Pumperthepumper

IMO any short term solutions will become a long term sticking plaster and nothing will get resolved.

Bringing retired teachers back won’t solve every problem in education, no.

But I can’t see how it would hurt in relation to catching up on missed education.

@MrsHamlet for the UK. We have notoriously poor attendance rates for a developed country.

I think retired teachers would be great for the catch up program, especially if schools could hire them directly. We have some excellent teachers who have retired in the last few years who would be fantastic, and the fact they already know the school would be such a bonus. They don't particularly want to return to whole class teaching, but would for smaller group work. I can imagine this would be far more effective that the random tutors we had for the previous catch-up (who were of varying quality). It should also be more cost effective as it cuts out the middle man (someone made a fortune from the previous tutoring program and it wasn't the tutors!).

Pumperthepumper

How would bringing in retired teachers help with catching up on missed education?

It may stabilise the amount that the pupils are missing or have missed but in order to catch up the retired teachers would have to put in extra time.