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To post this for road users unaware of upcoming highway code changes

458 replies

FluffyBooBoo · 17/12/2021 15:49

That's loads of info available online, but the AA have done a study that shows that two thirds of people are unaware of the charges.

Photo attached with basic info.

To post this for road users unaware of upcoming highway code changes
OP posts:
limitedperiodonly · 20/12/2021 16:50

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

Incidentally - the poor woman who was killed by a lorry in that documentary - they did a reconstruction, and even with the six mirrors (including one to view the front of the vehicle), because of her height and where she stood, she couldn't be seen by the driver.

Pedestrians and cyclists really need to understand, not just assume, when they can and cannot be seen, and to realise large vehicles can't stop or swerve out of the way easily.

Which poor woman was that?
daimbarsatemydogsbone · 20/12/2021 17:18

The documentary I linked to upthread - it's not many posts ago.

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 20/12/2021 17:25

This is a link to a news report

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/how-police-painstakingly-pieced-together-21912204

I can't imagine the woman knew or understood the risk she was taking - but that in itself doesn't make the driver responsible - Police concluded she was effectively invisible. The photo in the article is a little misleading - it shows there was a split second after he was already moving where a very small part of the top of the woman's head was visible - but even if he had seen her at that point, it would have been too late. From his viewpoint - when he set off there was no-one there.

DdraigGoch · 20/12/2021 17:53

@EightWheelGirl

The point being that going around saying "cyclists should be banned" or "44t trucks should be banned" is a fucking stupid thing to say.

Was I too subtle for you?

No, it was just a crap analogy.

Trucks serve a vital purpose unlike bikes. If bikes are allowed, why not electric scooters, quad bikes, etc?

Of course bikes serve a vital purpose. If I have no bike, I can't get to work. If I can't get to work, trains get cancelled. If trains get cancelled, other people can't get to work.

Much more vital than a lorry delivering tat to The Range, methinks.

BewareTheRedNosedDragon · 20/12/2021 17:53
  • @firsttimedad79 you said your job was important and @EightWheelGirl likened herself to a key worker.*

Neither of those statements contain any implication that the person saying them is or believes they are more important than other drivers.

BewareTheRedNosedDragon · 20/12/2021 17:55

Arguments about whose purpose being on the road is more important are not helpful...

purplesequins · 20/12/2021 18:01

they did a reconstruction, and even with the six mirrors (including one to view the front of the vehicle), because of her height and where she stood, she couldn't be seen by the driver.

frankly, if the driver can't see pedestrians and cyclists properly due to vehicle design the driver should not drive it.

TractorAndHeadphones · 20/12/2021 18:15

@Fomofo

Of course, pesky cyclists aside, surely you sometimes get held up by sheer weight of traffic? Which would be helped by fewer cars on the road.
Nope - cycles are worse for traffic than cars if they travel in the middle of the road AND are slower. What would really help is more people in shared transport. Buses, trains, etc.
limitedperiodonly · 20/12/2021 18:23

@daimbarsatemydogsbone I see. Thanks. I thought it might be this woman I linked to earlier.

There are a lot of them, aren't there? It's true that it is not always the driver's fault. That goes for if you are driving a Mini or a HGV. The thing is the smaller person - whether a pedestrian, cyclist or motorcyclist tends to come off worse in encounters with cars and lorries.

It's not a matter of who is going to end up in court or not. It's a matter of education. I passed my driving test a long time ago but apart from "mirror, signal, manoeuvre" the main thing drummed into you is "anticipate". It surely must still be.

That doesn't mean you have to be a mind reader. If I was driving past a school or near an ice cream van at 3.30pm I'd be aware that children might run in front of me. If driving past a club at midnight I'd expect pissed people in the road. Similarly if I was driving past a bingo hall I wouldn't be surprised by elderly ladies popping up.

That doesn't mean that if I hit them it would necessarily be my fault. But it's not enough to say they should have taken more care. Of course they should have done but they are dead and the driver who hit them feels enormous guilt.

There are terrible road junctions as in my link. They should be improved because all road users have to share them and warning signs put up around likely hazards rather than people saying weaker road users should look out or get off the road.

Even if we are drivers most of us drive small vehicles - not buses and HGVs. It doesn't matter whose fault it is because in a collision the person driving the smaller vehicle will always come off worse.

Of course all road users have a responsibility not to do stupid things but it's not enough to shrug and say: "Oh well. Can't be helped."

rrhuth · 20/12/2021 18:29

I wondered when I heard whether these changes were in prep for autonomous vehicles? They will have to give way to pedestrians and cyclists so this will help to even it up between the two types of vehicles. Pedestrians are going to get more reckless I expect when they can factor in the reaction time of a robot rather than a knackered person also reading their mobile! We are going to have an insurance conundrum between the two types of vehicle I think. I can't wait for autonomous vehicles (although worry about the data aspect).

Generally I am in favour of anything that puts non-polluting road users and pedestrians higher up the hierachy.

limitedperiodonly · 20/12/2021 18:31

@BewareTheRedNosedDragon

* *@firsttimedad79 you said your job was important and @EightWheelGirl likened herself to a key worker.

Neither of those statements contain any implication that the person saying them is or believes they are more important than other drivers.

I'm paraphrasing a number of posts correctly and you are quoting selectively. If you have made an error in comprehension I accept your mistake. If not I'm not going to bother replying.
daimbarsatemydogsbone · 20/12/2021 18:32

@purplesequins

they did a reconstruction, and even with the six mirrors (including one to view the front of the vehicle), because of her height and where she stood, she couldn't be seen by the driver.

frankly, if the driver can't see pedestrians and cyclists properly due to vehicle design the driver should not drive it.

and this sort of ignorance is why people die, sadly.
BewareTheRedNosedDragon · 20/12/2021 18:34

Ok - well I haven't read that in their posts but I don't read mumsnet like I would a contract so perhaps have missed something.

limitedperiodonly · 20/12/2021 18:40

@BewareTheRedNosedDragon

Ok - well I haven't read that in their posts but I don't read mumsnet like I would a contract so perhaps have missed something.
You're not wrong there.
Guttedbuyer · 20/12/2021 18:43

Sorry if it’d already been asked but what about the traffic coming from the road the pedestrian is crossing? Presumably the walker wants to cross the whole way over and not just half way.

EightWheelGirl · 20/12/2021 18:47
  • @EightWheelGirl likened herself to a key worker.*

I am a key worker.

purplesequins · 20/12/2021 19:01

purplesequins
they did a reconstruction, and even with the six mirrors (including one to view the front of the vehicle), because of her height and where she stood, she couldn't be seen by the driver.

frankly, if the driver can't see pedestrians and cyclists properly due to vehicle design the driver should not drive it.

and this sort of ignorance is why people die, sadly.

it seems the design is inadequate if someone as normal a apedestrian or cyclist is not visible from the cab.

firsttimedad79 · 20/12/2021 19:02

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

Although it isn't practical it would be great for everyone to take a turn at using each others' modes of transport.

It is really instructive seeing things from another viewpoint.

I recommend this series -

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0010vm0/the-crash-detectives-series-3-episode-4

In the linked episode there's a case of a cyclist hit by truck and injured - I highly doubt the cyclist meant to put himself at risk but he just totally failed to consider that given his actions, there was no way for the truck driver to avoid him.

In the same episode a truck runs down and kills a female pedestrian - extensive investigation again shows that there was no possible way the driver could see her as she had chosen to walk right in front of lorry as it was stationary at some traffic lights (instead of using the crossing at the lights).

In neither of those cases would it be in any way reasonable for the drivers of the lorries to have been held responsible as there was simply no practical way to avoid what happened.

I am glad I don't have to drive an HGV or a bus in London - as far as I can see (some) pedestrians and cyclists are inclined to swarm around any vehicle, utterly oblivious to the drivers' blindspots and the fact that even the most careful drive could set off when the traffic moves and collect them because s/he simply cannot (and could not) know they are there.

We have to as part of our periodic training. One of the modules is as a cyclist.
firsttimedad79 · 20/12/2021 19:06

@Fomofo

15 hours on the road a day, which I hope is not too often - surely you've seen your fair share of bad drivers too.
Oh without a doubt. And not all car drivers. I had an hgv try to overtake me on a motorway earlier and realised his turn off was closer than he thought. He then proceeded to try and drive into my cab!
firsttimedad79 · 20/12/2021 19:08

@Fomofo

15 hours on the road a day, which I hope is not too often - surely you've seen your fair share of bad drivers too.
Sorry, posted before I addressed the 15 hours lol

I generally do 3 15 hour a days a week and 2 13 hour days. Obviously not all of it is driving as we can only drive 9-10 hours a day :)

Some weeks I can do 5 15 hour days and a Saturday. Plus I get the joy of sleeping in a tin can 4 nights a week :) lol

firsttimedad79 · 20/12/2021 19:11

@purplesequins

purplesequins they did a reconstruction, and even with the six mirrors (including one to view the front of the vehicle), because of her height and where she stood, she couldn't be seen by the driver.

frankly, if the driver can't see pedestrians and cyclists properly due to vehicle design the driver should not drive it.

and this sort of ignorance is why people die, sadly.

it seems the design is inadequate if someone as normal a apedestrian or cyclist is not visible from the cab.

We have 6 mirrors on the cab. 2 normal side mirrors. 2 above these that give a wider view further back. 1 above the passenger door to see pedestrians/cyclists. 1 above the windscreen on the passenger side looking down at the front of the unit.

Add to this the London cameras (I have 1 passenger side, 1 drivers side and 1 at the rear of the trailer.

But there are still blind spots.

limitedperiodonly · 20/12/2021 19:14

@EightWheelGirl

* *@EightWheelGirl likened herself to a key worker.

I am a key worker.

And I accepted that. But you are not more entitled to be on the road than anyone else.

How many more times do I have to be grateful to you for delivering my turkey and Christmas pud? You were the one who brought that up, by the way.

firsttimedad79 · 20/12/2021 19:16

It's an old photo but it gives an idea of how big a blind spot can be for an hgv.

To post this for road users unaware of upcoming highway code changes
Creamcakeandrhinos · 20/12/2021 19:17

BaronessEllawrosaurus
but a pedestrian always had right of way in that situation. Problem is other road users like cars don't realise that they do have to give way all this is doing is making it clear.

Pedestrians only used to have right of way if they have actually stepped on the road not if they are on the pavement. Now that has changed

TractorAndHeadphones · 20/12/2021 19:41

@limitedperiodonly IMO truck driving posters were reacting to posts saying that large trucks etc had no right to be on the road.
In terms of 'entitlement' yes everyone has to be on the road and one should look out for more 'vulnerable' road users.
However very large vehicles have more blindspots and more importantly have little reaction room.
A normal sized car can stop quickly or move slightly but trucks etc cannot, moreover their size already means they are already using up most of the available space. They cannot scooch over to give cyclists pedestrians or anybody space so the onus is on the latter to give them a wide berth!
Furthermore trucks are already very heavily regulated. Large ones can only be on the road at certain times, they're monitored with cameras and besides with everyone having dash cams no driver is under the illusion that they can do dangerous things and get away with it.
Cyclists, car drivers etc when all is said and done there are 'alternative' modes of transports but there isn't a replacement for trucks.. no road user loves being behind a truck although they provide a vital service