To post this for road users unaware of upcoming highway code changes

[FluffyBooBoo]

That's loads of info available online, but the AA have done a study that shows that two thirds of people are unaware of the charges.

Photo attached with basic info.

@limitedperiodonly

Quite an important job wouldn't you think??

@firsttimedad79 I couldn't say. Some people do important jobs, sometimes even more important than driving things about in lorries.

Are you suggesting that some people are more important than others and should be able to disregard rules that the rest of us have to follow?

That's not a terribly popular position at the moment.

No one said anything about us not adhering to the rules. Hence being stuck behind said group of cyclists and not performing a dangerous overtake.

Yes what we do is important. Everything you buy, wether it be from a shop or online will at some point have been in a lorry. From food, to toys for the kids or the coffee machine from Amazon.

[quote limitedperiodonly]@EightWheelGirl do you mean like this key worker killed in a collision with an HGV driver?

It's not clear which driver was at fault if any. It's a very busy and dangerous junction that has claimed the lives of seven cyclists. Every person - key worker or not - has a right to be there and travel safely. No one should have to get out of anyone's way. Sensible people share the road whether they are saving the lives of children or delivering turkeys and xmas puds.[/quote]
Having knocked a cyclist off in London myself I can speak a little to this.

In my incident the cyclist in question came flying down the inside of me whilst I was making a left turn. I had my indicators on as well as an audible warning yet he still came.

He wasn't seriously injured, cuts and bruises where he had collided with my trailer but it's what happens in bigger cities. The onus is being put on hgv drivers for the safety feature, but why not onto cyclists to stay back and ride in a safe manner?

I used to cycle to work daily in London for years. I saw so many other cyclists undertaking a lorry or bus with no cycle lane. Every day I would see at least one. Often edging down the side of a bendy bus with a hand on the side of the bus to steady them because the space was so narrow I never did that, even though it marginally lengthened my journey.

From what is written in the article about the very sad death of the doctor, It sounds like it is bad road design and layout which is to blame. The lorry driver stopped and was not arrested.

We need to demand better road provision that caters to the needs and vulnerabilities of all road users.

I know someone who was hit by a cyclist - it was not the drivers fault and the cyclist broke their leg. The driver was seriously traumatised by the incident for many years.

From my experience of being a daily cyclist I would honestly say that cyclists ignore the rules of the road more often than other road users. Which makes sense since they don't have to worry about cameras etc. There is an attitude that a lack of responsibility for your actions brings which is not helpful. I still cycle though not daily, and I would support introduction of some form of registration for bikes and compulsory testing of knowledge of road rules. It is crazy that someone can just set off, being a totally exposed an vulnerable road user, into a route with heavy traffic and potentially no knowledge whatsoever of the rules and conventions that govern the flow of traffic. I honestly don't see how that is good for anyone.

@BewareTheRedNosedDragon The vast majority of cyclists drive, so have as much knowledge of the rules of the road as any other driver.

Statistics on adults involved in accidents with vehicles is that drivers are more often to blame than not.
From a Gov TRL report...
With adult cyclists, police found the driver solely responsible in about 60%-75% of all cases, and riders solely at fault 17%-25% of the time

When you add in children, then the stats are about 50/50.

The most common form of accident is the driver just driving into the back of the cyclist!

tbh you just sound like someone who just wants cyclists off the road, which is an opinion but don't hide behind "i am a cyclist myself but..."

Statistically the people getting killed by hgvs in cities are generally not the ones taking risks, it's pretty low to start victim blaming

@christmaspombear

Pedestrians have always had right of way if they have already stepped into the road, I can't see this one changing, no pedestrian is going to assert right of way and step in front of a car turning.

Oh they already do, with headphones on not looking at cars turning in!

Isn't it strange that whenever someone is driving behind a cyclist they complain about being held up, yet whenever there's an accident or a near miss then suddenly the cyclist came "flying" around the bend / up the inside.

Odd that.

What is even more perverse is that more female cyclists are getting killed than men. One theory behind this is that women obey the rules more, thereby putting themselves in harms way, whereas its the male cyclists 'taking risks', that are saving their bacon

I can only guess how many people will do this just to prove a point to drivers, and walk in front of turning vehicles.

I know a militant environmentalist who thinks cars should be banned. I can see her doing something like this.

I certainly don't want cyclists off the road. I want roads that are properly safe for cyclists. That is interesting and worrying that women are killed more. I admit that I always thought I was protecting myself by cycling sensibly and following the rules. Perhaps I was just lucky.

The stats are for females involved in accidents with Lorries in London.

Perhaps some road users are not aware that the trailer of a lorry takes a tighter radius around a corner, so do not realise the danger they are putting themselves in by undertaking a lorry?

More generally, women are less likely to be killed/seriously injured, esp in accidents not involving another vehicle.

The way to make cycling safer on the roads is to have deterrent sentencing for drivers who have caused an accident with a cyclist, combined with presumed liability

@Lockheart

Isn't it strange that whenever someone is driving behind a cyclist they complain about being held up, yet whenever there's an accident or a near miss then suddenly the cyclist came "flying" around the bend / up the inside.

Odd that.

If you are referring to my comments then it's 2 completely different scenarios.

The being held up scenario was on a country road.

The cyclists coming up the inside is inner city.

@Fomofo

Statistically the people getting killed by hgvs in cities are generally not the ones taking risks, it's pretty low to start victim blaming

No one is victim blaming. What we are doing is pointing out the perils and dangers from a different perspective to the cyclist.

As it stands now, an hgv driver is already held at fault for a collision with a cyclist. Regardless of who the actual fault lies with.

Personally I think there should be properly segregated cycle lanes in inner cities purely to minimise the risk of these accidents happening.

@Fomofo

What is even more perverse is that more female cyclists are getting killed than men. One theory behind this is that women obey the rules more, thereby putting themselves in harms way, whereas its the male cyclists 'taking risks', that are saving their bacon

I've been aware of this for ages. I don't cycle because I don't want to and there is good public transport where I live if I can't walk. But many people cycle to commute or just because they enjoy it.

Female cyclists are more likely to be seriously injured or killed
and there is evidence that many of them are reluctant to take up defensive riding positions in the middle of the road to stop drivers chancing a close pass because they feel wrongly obliged to get out of the way.

You only have to read the posts of @firsttimedad79 and @EightWheelGirl, the two HGV drivers on this thread, to understand how some drivers think they are more important than others.

A long time ago, shortly after I learned to drive, I was almost involved in a serious accident because I was intimidated by an aggressive driver and felt I should get out of his way. I almost hit a completely blameless driver. Luckily he slammed on his brakes and laid on the horn. The aggressor was long gone.

I realised that if I was going to drive anywhere and do it safely I was going to have to stop allowing myself to be intimidated by arseholes. That doesn't mean holding people up - In fact I'd much rather let an arsehole overtake and be in front of me rather than behind me. But I no longer apologise for my existence. I am a competent driver. If you are behind me stay there until you can safely overtake even if it takes as long as 12 whole minutes.

That's what I do when behind cyclists, other slow-moving vehicles, riders, sheep, the Dagenham Girl Pipers...

@Lockheart

Isn't it strange that whenever someone is driving behind a cyclist they complain about being held up, yet whenever there's an accident or a near miss then suddenly the cyclist came "flying" around the bend / up the inside.

Odd that.

It is odd. Another one is: "I'm an excellent driver. I've never had an accident but I've seen loads..."

It's also a fallacy that cyclists are always putting themselves in danger by undertaking lorries. More often than not lorries overtake me when I'm approaching or waiting at a junction and then turn left infront of me

@Fomofo

It's also a fallacy that cyclists are always putting themselves in danger by undertaking lorries. More often than not lorries overtake me when I'm approaching or waiting at a junction and then turn left infront of me

Rightly or wrongly I tend to avoid this situation by cycling in the middle of the lane.

@AuntyBumBum

Exactly right! Just as the Highway Code tells you to!

@limitedperiodonly

We didn't say we were more important than drivers. The conversation was about cyclists and what we experience on a daily basis.

Most drivers only drive to and from work or at weekends/socially. We are on the road for up to 15 hours a day, so we are going to see a lot more of the bad side of behaviours rather than the commuter who sees about 1-2 hours a day.

Although it isn't practical it would be great for everyone to take a turn at using each others' modes of transport.

It is really instructive seeing things from another viewpoint.

I recommend this series -

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0010vm0/the-crash-detectives-series-3-episode-4

In the linked episode there's a case of a cyclist hit by truck and injured - I highly doubt the cyclist meant to put himself at risk but he just totally failed to consider that given his actions, there was no way for the truck driver to avoid him.

In the same episode a truck runs down and kills a female pedestrian - extensive investigation again shows that there was no possible way the driver could see her as she had chosen to walk right in front of lorry as it was stationary at some traffic lights (instead of using the crossing at the lights).

In neither of those cases would it be in any way reasonable for the drivers of the lorries to have been held responsible as there was simply no practical way to avoid what happened.

I am glad I don't have to drive an HGV or a bus in London - as far as I can see (some) pedestrians and cyclists are inclined to swarm around any vehicle, utterly oblivious to the drivers' blindspots and the fact that even the most careful drive could set off when the traffic moves and collect them because s/he simply cannot (and could not) know they are there.

Well yes, but we can only hope technology keeps on improving vehicle safety for all our sakes. I know that lorry mirrors were updated as a result of one mothers campaign after her daughter was killed by a lorry.

@Fomofo

Well yes, but we can only hope technology keeps on improving vehicle safety for all our sakes. I know that lorry mirrors were updated as a result of one mothers campaign after her daughter was killed by a lorry.

Indeed - I know a lot of changes have taken place in London and most trucks now have additional blind spot cameras BUT the driver can't look at multiple mirrors/screens and watch where they are going simultaneously - which is why it would be good (but I accept impractical) for everyone to have a go at driving a large vehicle.

[quote firsttimedad79]@limitedperiodonly

We didn't say we were more important than drivers. The conversation was about cyclists and what we experience on a daily basis.

Most drivers only drive to and from work or at weekends/socially. We are on the road for up to 15 hours a day, so we are going to see a lot more of the bad side of behaviours rather than the commuter who sees about 1-2 hours a day. [/quote]
@firsttimedad79 you said your job was important and @EightWheelGirl likened herself to a key worker. None of which I dispute.

The conversation isn't what you say it is. It is a point of view. I take on board your points but do not wholly agree with them. My opinion is that you and @EightWheelGirl are no more entitled to be on the road than anyone else. You can of course disagree with that.

If I don't get my Xmas pud this year I will know to apportion some of the blame to cyclists.

Incidentally - the poor woman who was killed by a lorry in that documentary - they did a reconstruction, and even with the six mirrors (including one to view the front of the vehicle), because of her height and where she stood, she couldn't be seen by the driver.

Pedestrians and cyclists really need to understand, not just assume, when they can and cannot be seen, and to realise large vehicles can't stop or swerve out of the way easily.

15 hours on the road a day, which I hope is not too often - surely you've seen your fair share of bad drivers too.