12 year keeps getting in trouble at school and home - am I being too HARSH or not HARSH enough?

[MNF2021]

My daughter is 12 and is constantly getting in trouble at school. It’s so stressful as nearly every few days within a week I am getting called from the school about her behaviour towards teachers, other students and nothing seems to deter her.
She has been placed on a report at school were she has to get it signed after every lesson about her behaviour and tends to end up in isolation (time away from the class for the whole day on a day to day basis). When asked why she thinks it’s acceptable to do these things, she simply responds with “that’s just the way I am or people are so annoying”
So your probably thinking, what have I done at home?
She is an only child and I have tried speaking and reasoning with her to be greeted with nothing but teen backchat and attitude. Her gadgets have been confiscated until Christmas Day, no friends over, no Christmas disco etc - all been taken away and her response is she doesn’t care!
Does anyone have any parenting advise/tips on consequences and how to make her realise that her actions will eventually get her into big trouble!! Help!
I realise I may have over indulged her being my only child and I think I am now paying the price!

Punishments won't work as she won't have an incentive to try if every time she messes up, she loses something else.

I agree with others that it sounds like ADHD with the tapping, disruption and inability to concentrate.

I would make it a priority to get her to the GP and start trying to get her on the pathway to a diagnosis and some medical support or treatment.

@explodingeyes

Agree with everyone else. Stop punishing her and get her help. She's not coping. There is something behind all this. If you don't she'll end up with no qualifications at 16 if not excluded first

This.

Stop punishing her. Look into adhd and speak to her about it. She might calm down if she realises she has an underlying cause and is being supported. She might not have adhd but from the things you describe it does sound likely

Honestly everything you’re saying sounds like ADHD. Talk to the SENCO and start the ball rolling on diagnosis. Your child has one shot at doing well at school and without the right support, both at school and home, she doesn’t stand a chance.

Thank you for all of the support. It’s quite eye opening and will set the wheels in motion.

If it was ADHD you'd have had trouble in the past. My hormones were raging at 12 causing my anger.

Why is she angry and lashing out? I would try getting to the bottom of why she is so upset.

Take the gentle approach as the harsh isn't working. If she is defiant by nature punishment won't help.

I could be ADHD but there would be many obvious parts.
My DD with inactive ADHD would never answer a teacher back, she is disorganised, scatty but very good natured. ADHD in girls usually presents as inactive basically add without the hyper.

*it

I'm sorry, this sounds really stressful .

Has she explained why she is physically hitting and lashing out? I would focus on that and how it can be prevented since physically assaulting others is unacceptable and (at her age) potentially criminal behaviour. So that's the bit to go no tolerance on. Other children have the right to be safe from violence.

For the rest, like others have said I'd back off a bit. She's already being punished at school so you need to be supporting her at home and trying to find the root causes. Also discussing with school how they can support her. She needs to feel she can succeed again and get back on the right path whereas at the moment she probably feels like she's being set up to fail.

@MNF2021

I have always said this about her that education isn’t for her. She has no interest in and makes no effort at all. She does struggle and I have got her extra tuition in those subjects but there is still a lack of attention. Her knees are constantly twitching whilst learning, she’s doodling, breaking pens when she is meant to be focusing.

She will have picked up on that so it's probably time to change the narrative! I've never met a child who didn't actually want to learn although I've met lots who struggled with expected learning behaviours. She needs support.

How is she socially lots of friends. More girls or boys?

She is fine with regards to friends. Historically she has changed friendship groups quite a bit but I put that down to primary age? She has mostly girls but there are a few boys. But what’s sad is she thinks she will gain more friends by being the class clown and with her behaviour she thinks that fact that she bad at school - she may aswell stay that way as she can’t revert back in their eyes.

Does she understand that the hitting and physically lashing out are assault and a potentially criminal offence?

My son was like this, but without physically lashing out.
School wasn't for him. It was an academy with lots of petty rules and it was easy for them to escalate minor things up to a stage 4 meeting were he was about to be permanently excluded.
DS just felt like he had nothing left to lose. They were only concerned about academic excellence and did not want to know about his dyslexia. He did leave with no qualifications and spent that summer holiday afterwards exhibiting what looked like PTSD symptoms.
I feel awful for what we put him through by sticking with that education system. It was rigid, punishing and not useful for him. He is 18 now and got his English, Maths and NVQ while getting up and cheerfully working full time doing an apprenticeship .
Please give your daughter her things back and show her some unconditional love.
After DS was hanging out with his mates and getting into trouble, we stopped banning the x-box etc and made home a nice place to be and he "came back" to us.
I'll always remember the turning point in my behaviour when I had driven him into school aged 14, forcing him to go when he didn't want to. He was swearing at me in the car and telling me he hated me. I felt so deflated and didn't react angrily like I normally did. In response to him telling me I was a fucking bitch and that he hated me, I said, "well, I love you son"
He went in and was sick with guilt all day about what he'd said to me. Came home to apologise and I was not there. I was working a late shift. It hit him then, and while the road was bumpy, we were on our way up. He's 18 now and such a lovely, hilarious, bright lad going steady with his girlfriend of nearly three years. He just needed a tight knit circle around him, showing him the way through natural consequences, love, hours of conversation and no punishments.
Don't give up, your DD is changing and you can help her go the right way. She is still a little kid really x

Emerald5hamrock
If it was ADHD you'd have had trouble in the
past. My hormones were raging at 12
causing my anger.
She has had trouble in the past.

Agree with talking to the SENCO.

As my cousin once said, not all kids suit the system.

Does she have any fidget toys?

I think you both need to approach this as a team.

What exactly winds her up? It might be a particular child, a teacher, a classroom.

Can she have a 'time out' pass? Some children need some time outside the classroom. It is not unknown for a child to be given a note to take to another teacher.

When they deliver the note they are asked to take it to a third teacher.

The note says something like, "Joan/John needs a break can you send her/him for a walk until 2.35pm"

This is usually done with primary children, older children can sometimes be given a pass so they can leave a classroom and go to a designated area.

If you ever saw me in a lecture you would think I was doodling and not paying attention, it's just the way my brain works (I'm dyslexic) doodling actually makes me listen and retain information.

Discuss with her how she feels, does she not understand? Does she need time out? Is she just being a brat? I the class too slow.

Don't be angry with the answers, we all have 'off days'.

What is she interested in? What would she like to do after school?

It is unusual but possible to go to college at 14 to take an alternative route in education, but she will need to have her temper under better control.

I was teaching a GCSE maths group, all 16+ and all had to retake. One of the students who had a reputation for 'attitude' told me she had finished her work.

She refused to take her hat off in class, and had previously been sent tot he principle.

I didn't bother arguing, I told her if she didn't remove her hat I had to record it on SIMS and it would be picked up by senior staff. She was OK with that and I got to teach.

Anyway when she told me she had completed her work and I checked, she had and she had a perfect score.

I introduced her to iteration and gave her an extension activity to find the square root of 5 using iteration and she was hooked.

I didn't hear another word from her for the duration of the class.

The downside of supply is that I could only highlight this in SIMS and not follow up.

As teachers we are as constrained with 'the system' as our students, as a parent the only thing you can do is work with your daughter to navigate the system.

Talk it through with her and then go to see the SENCO.

Are you working? Could she go on to a reduced timetable?

I think you need to treat her more harshly. You say you spoilt her in the past but that has led her to behave badly, so it's logical you just need to keep treating her more and more harshly until she eventually capitulates and decides it's easier for her to behave than not.

Maybe take her gadgets away and ground her semi-permanently, until she has had at least a term with no bad behaviour reported from the school. Her life consists of going to school, coming straight home and doing homework and chores, then bed. No TV, no computer, no phone, no music. Any spare time she has is to be spent sitting in silence, reflecting on her bad behaviour. Keep her diet healthy but bland, just raw vegetables and plain rice, that type of thing.

She will probably react negatively at first but persist with this kind of regime and ultimately she will realise that this is no kind of life. Remind her that all she needs to do is improve her behaviour and eventually she will be released from the restrictions.

ADHD
Possible learning difficulties - dyslexia
And
Depression and or anxiety

It sounds like she needs more stimulation than school is offering.
It's a tough age too.
Unfortunately the class clown is popular and hard to break away from the role she has identified with.
Ask the gp for a referral for an assessment, if you can afford private I'd take that route.
I apologise I missed one of your posts earlier when I replied.
Good luck and don't beat yourself up over her behaviour they are themselves although an extension of us.
I'm sure she'll be lovely again.

@MorningStarling

I think you need to treat her more harshly. You say you spoilt her in the past but that has led her to behave badly, so it's logical you just need to keep treating her more and more harshly until she eventually capitulates and decides it's easier for her to behave than not.

Maybe take her gadgets away and ground her semi-permanently, until she has had at least a term with no bad behaviour reported from the school. Her life consists of going to school, coming straight home and doing homework and chores, then bed. No TV, no computer, no phone, no music. Any spare time she has is to be spent sitting in silence, reflecting on her bad behaviour. Keep her diet healthy but bland, just raw vegetables and plain rice, that type of thing.

She will probably react negatively at first but persist with this kind of regime and ultimately she will realise that this is no kind of life. Remind her that all she needs to do is improve her behaviour and eventually she will be released from the restrictions.

I'm pretty sure this is a joke, ha ha how funny, but just in case it's not obvious, don't do this anyone.

Kids do well if they can.

Sounds like ADHD to me.

Read Ross Greene - The Explosive Child.

This child is being violent and has engaged in bullying behaviour towards younger children.

As regards the non-engagement and low level defiance, I agree with the advice given to look for the causes, seek help and support rather than punish.

But the OP needs to be absolutely unequivocally clear with her DD that physical violence in all forms is unacceptable and will lead to very serious consequences if she continues.

@MorningStarling

I think you need to treat her more harshly. You say you spoilt her in the past but that has led her to behave badly, so it's logical you just need to keep treating her more and more harshly until she eventually capitulates and decides it's easier for her to behave than not.

Maybe take her gadgets away and ground her semi-permanently, until she has had at least a term with no bad behaviour reported from the school. Her life consists of going to school, coming straight home and doing homework and chores, then bed. No TV, no computer, no phone, no music. Any spare time she has is to be spent sitting in silence, reflecting on her bad behaviour. Keep her diet healthy but bland, just raw vegetables and plain rice, that type of thing.

She will probably react negatively at first but persist with this kind of regime and ultimately she will realise that this is no kind of life. Remind her that all she needs to do is improve her behaviour and eventually she will be released from the restrictions.

I'm glad you're not my mum , and my own one was a nutcase.

Usually children who are treated too leniently and indulged at home benefit from the structure and rules at school and behave better there, so I don't think the problem is that you're not harsh enough at home. A lot of punishment at home for bad behaviour in school can make things worse (no need to ask me how I learned that, sigh!! But the upside was that things actually got better in school when I made a conscious effort to take the pressure off at home and keep things super-calm and super-relaxed - well, along with all the other investigations and support that was put in place)

Hitting and lashing out for no obvious cause, meanness, and speaking out inappropriately, those all sound like maybe some kind of social/communication issue, maybe worse when she is in a group in school than one-to-one at home. Along with lack of attention and fidgeting / sensory behaviour, ASC or ADHD both sound like possibles.

But it sounds serious if she's been getting physical, and definitely worth proper investigation. So I'm glad you're going to follow up.

Does she understand having a “Growth Mindset”? This was practically drilled into the infants and juniors around here. “That’s just the way I am” signifies that she thinks she can’t change. Aside from the behaviour, her self-confidence needs addressing, which should in turn lead to better behaviour.

Sounds like me at school
I was extremely disruptive at school and labelled a naughty kid

Eventually kicked out as soon as I turned 16

Years later as a adult I been diagnosed with ADHD

Attention plays a huge part of behaviour at school I think and I can see that looking back.

I would go for a adhd assessment if I was you