"What if the reason why we're all burned out is because the productivity norms of our profession are based on white men whose wives who took care of everything"

[flashbac]

Not my words. Saw it on Twitter and it made me think.

twitter.com/AmyAchenbach/status/1470394756844957702?t=K01WWVnQE2WPIQl80rZUyw&s=19

Of course it is. I realised this twenty years ago when I started in my profession and saw that all the partners were white, male, middle/upper middle class and their wives didn't work. I was never going to be them and would have to find my own way to get on.

Yes. Modern life is a cesspool.

Whenever I read a biography of a 'great man' I always think of how much easier it must be to be great and brilliant and dynamic if you never even have to think about cleaning and laundry and cooking and shopping, let alone actually have to do those things. It must be like having a team of magical elves working for your success.

If you don't have children, then all those tasks are negligible. No able-bodied single person struggles with them.

If you do have children... well, you weren't necessarily both willing to make the same sacrifices to facilitate them. There ought always to have been an explicit discussion before-hand who was going to do what. You can legitimately plead in the court of public opinion that it was not unreasonable to assume equality, but it would have been better to have had an agreement. Written, in blood, maybe. Not that you can enforce an agreement, but at least then you will know for certain you were lied to, and not a victim of your own wrong assumptions.

Of course the man up-thread who apparently assumed (without discussion) his wife would do more than half, is going to be a victim (not the only one) of his own wrong assumptions, when she divorces him.

I do agree with the posts on here and I say that as one of the ‘supporting wives.’ I would disagree that this system is still predominantly perpetrated by white men though. Corporate culture is one thing. Perhaps it’s still mainly white men at the top of the hierarchies there - but at least the offices are closed at weekends! My husband is British Indian / Middle Eastern and has always been self-employed. He’s an entrepreneur basically. There are many like him who have normalised working fat longer hours than people in corporate roles and they are very ethnically diverse.

After our first DS (we have 4 DC), it was as if my husband had a rocket up him. He left banking, went self-employed and his work quickly took in a life if it’s own, like a snowball effect. No cut off between work and home life. Phone calls and emails at all hours - weekends, evenings until midnight, holidays. Flying off here there and everywhere at a moment’s notice. There was never any discussion about this. None whatsoever. I don’t blame him because he’s been very successful and I feel we’ve all definitely benefitted overall. But Equally, I am very aware that very few women (with 4 children), would be able to carry on like this without being wracked with guilt.

He has countless associates / friends - all self-made in their 40s and many are semi-retired at 50 - but all had SAHWs.

I once had an argument with him after overhearing him on a conference call. They were discussing putting a woman on the board, but basically dismissed her on the spurious reason that she was late-30s and just got married so would ‘probably be having a family soon.’ I heard him say this casually and challenged him in it. He said he couldn’t remember having said that. Then he countered with the fact he has provided over 1,000 jobs for women and how date I call him sexist because he has ensured a working culture prioritising the provision of flexi working etc for women who need to work part-time or drop off / pick up their children etc as he thinks this is very important. This is the mentality. It’s very hard to shift.

I think the statement is true to an extent, but I also think technology has played a role.

For example, lawyers used to draft contracts, send them to be typed up, and send them in the post to the other side. You'd have days or weeks before you had a response. Now you do it yourself and send it by email and might have a response within seconds! Or you use sharing software. Expectations have increased, everything has to be done now.

My mum used to be an unpaid PA for my dad. In fact I was too. He was home-based and she and I used to take calls for him all the time when he was out visiting customers.

@RandomLondoner

Of course the man up-thread who apparently assumed (without discussion) his wife would do more than half, is going to be a victim (not the only one) of his own wrong assumptions, when she divorces him.

Sadly, the most affected victim if that divorce will be the woman as she will be left with the main responsibility to raise and provide for the kids while the man will move quickly into a new relationship and just add a little compartment to deal with his previous life/kids.

I would also suggest that it had been enabled by technology advances, eg washing machines, hoovers, cars, robots eg robot hoovers, Internet eg Internet shopping etc, life pre 1950s was much harder, by making household tasks easier it frees up time for both partners to take on salaried work and provide for the home.

If you do have children... well, you weren't necessarily both willing to make the same sacrifices to facilitate them. There ought always to have been an explicit discussion before-hand who was going to do what.
We did have an explicit discussion that we would do 50/50. Guess what - as soon as he got offered a promotion the agreement went out the window. He wanted to take the promotion and me saying no didn’t stop him. Because according to him it’s unreasonable that I don’t want to “look after my own child” while he works to provide for us!

And there’s always that prince among men (like my friend’s husband of thirteen years) who admits he’s not willing to do his share but says if she refuses to have kids he’ll divorce her. She was 38 when he admitted this and she felt it was too late to leave and find a man to be an equal parent - her choice was to have a baby in the knowledge that he wouldn’t do half, or not have one at all.

I actually think a lot of men start out in their teens and twenties expecting to be equal with their partner - and they probably are fairly equal at that point, which lures the woman into a false sense of security. But as time passes and they get promoted they expect to receive more and more support, and for her to step back more and more to facilitate him. A man won’t refuse promotions because he has responsibilities outside work - he just tries to offload those responsibilities into someone else, even if it’s detrimental to her.

I think the race element adds an unnecessary level of complexity to an otherwise valid point. It’s like it’s been thrown on for good measure.

I think the race element adds an unnecessary level of complexity to an otherwise valid point. It’s like it’s been thrown on for good measure

It's not unnecessary.

The race element is completely unnecessary. Because it implies that only white men have stay at home wives who “take care of everything” housekeeping and child rearing wise. When we know for a fact that the tradition of a woman’s place being at home crosses all cultures and all races.

Absolutely. in fact there are many cultures in which the patriarch is so embedded that there is no question of domestic equality even today.

So, the race element is not only unnecessary it invalidates the entire point.

@ElftonWednesday

I think the race element adds an unnecessary level of complexity to an otherwise valid point. It’s like it’s been thrown on for good measure

It's not unnecessary.

It reflects an American situation.

I don't think the original statement applies to all white couples in the UK - social class trumps almost everything else like pps have eloquently explained.

Not do I think the opposite applies to all BAME couples in the UK.

Come to think of it I feel uncomfortable making assumptions based on people's skin colour

In other countries, the situation would again be different.

Racism exists but that does't mean that American issues and debates are relevant everywhere.

Well pointed out. It is as you say relevant based on American capitalist culture.

In all fairness to her, she's an American talking about and to her peer group. I loathe it when Americans insist on assuming what's relevant there is relevant everywhere, but that doesn't seem to be what's happening here.

I would say however that parts of our work culture have been impacted by these American norms.

How disgusting that race is thrown into this.

@fournonblondes

How disgusting that race is thrown into this.

Why? My life motto has always been 'Lord grant me the confidence of a mediocre white man'.

People are being exploited and that is why they feel burn out. I remembered being told in the 90s that by now people would have so much more leisure time with the advances of technology and all the rest. In reality we are working more and is much more competitive.You need to protect your job to keep it and there is so much pressure. In America even worst but here with some jobs you can’t have a break or frequent holidays.

I think it is true. Even at school, the mum’s WhatsApp group is buzzing with messages about mufti days, raffles etc and the dad’s one is used to arrange the occasional pub outing.

My husband is very senior. His company chairman doesn’t get that he has a wife that works. I am in a very family friendly sector (in theory)but have reached the point where I can’t go up anymore without selling my soul as the hours to do the next level are just all consuming and too hard without someone picking up the slack.

What if the reason she writes that is because she is racist and only because racism apparently only works one way she can post that without being cancelled.

I work from home since covid, full time demanding job. Husband works full time but goes out to work. Not sure how I have let this happen but I do 90% of household chores, sort out all admin/bills, run around after the kids. My husband cannot multi task. I ask him to sort out one thing for my son. It's still not done. I'm sick of it as I now come across as nagging. I've had enough. I'm knackered, stressed out. I'm 52 and going through the menopause. It would be easier if I was on my own with the kids,

I agree with this when we are talking about women. Not so sure men are in the same position (Aka their reason for burn out are different imo).

I also feel this is the reason why women have a more shitty hand now than 20 years ago.
20~30 years ago it was still ok for women not to work. In case of divorced, they could receive spouse maintenance etc…

Now?? They are supposed to work like a man, put the same hours and EXPECTED to be financially independent etc…. Whilst they are still the only person responsible for the children/house/mental load. (Very few men have actually stepped up. It’s extremely rare to have a real 50/50 split of responsibilities)
The immediate effect is that women have no other choice but to scale back the number of hours at work, getting disadvantaged on all fronts.

Whenever I read a biography of a 'great man' I always think of how much easier it must be to be great and brilliant and dynamic if you never even have to think about cleaning and laundry and cooking and shopping, let alone actually have to do those things.

If you don't have children, then all those tasks are negligible. No able-bodied single person struggles with them.

Maybe not in your world. But I'm (basically) able-bodied and these tasks are not 'negligible'; we have a cleaner, but otherwise either my work suffers or we run out of household stuff/food, resort to a takeaway, or run out of clothes.

It's my day off. I've just answered questions & emailed a document during the school run. I've been asked to ring in. It's not urgent.

I was the higher earner pre kids, my 'd'H would be really upset to hear what I think about his track record on equality. Once that baby came out so did his previous generation household views.

My H now has an amazing career whilst mine whithered because I was literally holding the baby. I love the kids but I personally paid a very high price.