"What if the reason why we're all burned out is because the productivity norms of our profession are based on white men whose wives who took care of everything"

[flashbac]

Not my words. Saw it on Twitter and it made me think.

twitter.com/AmyAchenbach/status/1470394756844957702?t=K01WWVnQE2WPIQl80rZUyw&s=19

Interesting thoughts. I read a piece recently by an academic (female) who had made the argument that the kind of workload and 'dedication' that leads to near or actual burnout is routinely rewarded by the overall structure, and it would be more realistic to stop doing that.

I have a friend with one parent owning a shop (one that was as 'essential' as they come, with specialist elements to it) and the other a SAHM. 30 years on the friend is now married to someone who also works shifts in a shop but she has postgrad qualifications and has a job that is full time and then some. Her parents now just don't get why the hours etc are very difficult to fulfil and negotiate - I found it strange as I would have thought there would be some understanding of shop shifts and their minimal flexibility - but there's the difference of the role of a SAHP I think.

Before WW2 most women didn’t work outside the home.

I dont think that's actually true; I think I read that itcwas around 50% in Victorian times.

Working and lmc families could afford women women to work.

And remember work inside the home wasbt necessarily "just" childcare, housework etc- they took in time consuming, demanding work eg in my area of the UK, women were the main workers in the garment industry and they worked at home (their work collected by the factory cart/van at intervals).as will as in the factories.

The targets that workers face today are much much higher than the ones of our grandparents and the prize of meeting your targets is having the bar raised as soon as you do.

Is this really true? My grandma was a seamstress and used to tell stories of having to go so fast that a needle through the finger was an everyday occurrence. No sympathy when this happened - wages docked for lost productivity and a bollocking if any blood got on the garment. Only prize for meeting targets would have been keeping your job. This was in the 1930s.

*not to work

White men 🙌🙌🙌

Our unparalleled productivity 🙌🙌🙌

It would be interesting to see a survey of SLT in say the top 500 companies to see how many members were part of a relationship where not parties had equally demanding jobs. My guess would be that the vast majority of SLT members would be male, with wives holding the fort on the domestic front. I am sure there are exceptions, but would be staggers if they were the rule.

Ridiculous typos. Sorry.

This woman is American. Race is relevant to the point she's making, because she's alluding to the fact that there was never the same tradition of black women being at home. As a cohort they've always worked. Because the majority of people there have always married people of the same ethnicity, there wasn't the same bloc of black men who got used to being in the workplace with the support of a homemaker as existed in the white population, although tbf poor white women in the US have always worked too.

There's quite a lot written about this difference and what she's saying is pretty obviously rooted in that context.

And remember work inside the home wasbt necessarily "just" childcare, housework etc

You're right to put 'just' in quotes. Think about what this would have been like before vacuum cleaners, washing machines etc. The family wash alone would have been a full day's work.

Even in the 1970s I remember the rigmorole that was washing without an automatic machine - my mum lugging the twin tub out, poking around to get the dirt out and then having to lug out the sopping wet clothes. This was when my sister was in terry nappies too!

I have this argument with my mum all the time. She can't understand why I'm not gallivanting out and about with DD every weekend like we apparently did when I was a child.... you know, back in the 80's when the dad when out to work Mon-Fri 9-5 and the mum stayed home and looked after the kids and the house (my mum did work part-time, as a lunch lady, so did 1.5 hours per day in term time only!!!!!!)

It could have something to do with the fact that both DH and I work full time in busy jobs and our weekends are for chilling out and doing housework!

But my mum makes me feel terrible for not doing "enough" with DD at weekends but she has no idea what it's like to work full time, run a house hold and raise kids

I remember my Grandfather had a professional role. It was 5 minutes drive away. He would leave at 7:50 for an 8am start. He would go home for a full lunch hour (they always had their main meal at lunch). And he’d be home by 5:10 every evening. My Grandmother worked part time, but did 90% of the chores when she wasn’t working.

When I last worked in an office it was leave at 7:30 for a near to 9 start. Grab a quick sandwich for lunch. I wouldn’t get home until gone 7. Then I’d still have to cook and eat my main meal. Then chores all piled up for the weekend. Totally different.

In my 50’s now I’m done with it. I have no desire for more responsibility (stress). I have a part time wfh role which thankfully pays enough for what I need, with a bit left over. It was burnout that led to me taking that role. It means my retirement years will have to be somewhat frugal but that’s ok. Better that than have the stress kill me before I even get there!

There's some truth in this for jobs that have been traditionally done by men and were traditionally paid up to a level that would support a family. But the notion that women with partners and children hardly did any paid work before the 1940s is untrue- think of domestic service/cleaning, factory work, laundry services, shops, hospitality services...

Yes, some would leave when getting married/having children, but many returned to paid work when children were older.

The combination of advancing technology and the growing shortage in affordable housing (at least in the UK) is also to blame I think. It's impossible for most to buy or rent a family home on 1 income.

@VikingOnTheFridge

This woman is American. Race is relevant to the point she's making, because she's alluding to the fact that there was never the same tradition of black women being at home. As a cohort they've always worked. Because the majority of people there have always married people of the same ethnicity, there wasn't the same bloc of black men who got used to being in the workplace with the support of a homemaker as existed in the white population, although tbf poor white women in the US have always worked too.

There's quite a lot written about this difference and what she's saying is pretty obviously rooted in that context.

I'm not convinced that is US specific. I would say Black families in the UK would have the same labour force history. My grandparents and great grandparents both worked both here and in their home countries. I don't know of any wider family of that age who could afford a SAHP.

I'm not saying the US is the only place that would apply, it's just she is American and evidently talking to her peers.

@DressingPafe

I remember my Grandfather had a professional role. It was 5 minutes drive away. He would leave at 7:50 for an 8am start. He would go home for a full lunch hour (they always had their main meal at lunch). And he’d be home by 5:10 every evening. My Grandmother worked part time, but did 90% of the chores when she wasn’t working.

When I last worked in an office it was leave at 7:30 for a near to 9 start. Grab a quick sandwich for lunch. I wouldn’t get home until gone 7. Then I’d still have to cook and eat my main meal. Then chores all piled up for the weekend. Totally different.

In my 50’s now I’m done with it. I have no desire for more responsibility (stress). I have a part time wfh role which thankfully pays enough for what I need, with a bit left over. It was burnout that led to me taking that role. It means my retirement years will have to be somewhat frugal but that’s ok. Better that than have the stress kill me before I even get there!

Your grandfather's job sounds bliss! Your post highlights other issues too: commuting times have become longer for many over the years and we're no longer supposed to take proper lunch breaks. My dad's commute was 20 mins, mum's 30 mins. I've changed jobs now now but in my previous job my commute used to be over an hr, mainly because of congestion. My sister's commute is 1.5hrs each way.

My guess would be that the vast majority of SLT members would be male, with wives holding the fort on the domestic front
At my DH’s employer every high level executive has a partner at home looking after the house and kids. In most cases a wife, but a couple of them have husbands at home. Regardless, they all have someone handling life outside work for them, because it simply isn’t possible for someone with kids to work late, go on business trips, work weekends, and never take days off for childcare. It’s essential to have a housekeeper/nanny but even earning a six figure salary isn’t enough to be able to hire someone, so it has to be handled by an unpaid partner.

My workplace has become so toxic over the past few years and the expectations placed upon support staff is ridiculous.

• Staff have been made redundant with their roles being merged with others thus increasing workload.

• The term 'work/life balance' has been replaced with 'work/life blend' so senior management can now contact you outside of normal work hours.

• Senior management always just seem manic, work that you would normally have a few days to complete is always urgent and Slack/Teams is used constantly for communications.

• The constant need to put the company first and think of it as a family, abide by it's values, etc.

• Thinking that everyone wants to progress and wants a career rather than just doing a job so adding more workload with constantly doing courses, training and having appraisals.

@Thegreencup

And one of the best things is now lots of us are WFH. And yes this is great for families, I see my kids more etc. But most companies like it because people are actually working more hours. Rather than using that commute time on rest, relaxation and leisure we are using it to work. Depressing.

I don't understand this statement at all. Are you saying that between 7-9am and 5-7pm (traditional commuting times) you are working additional time outside your core hours? (Based on the 9-5 working pattern assumption)?

Because for the majority of WFH professionals, we aren't working 4 extra hours in a day.... If your company is making you do that you need to look at your contract and take it up with management.

@Notcontent

Yes. I work in quite a traditional profession. I would say 95% of my senior male colleagues have a stay at home wife who does everything or only works on a very part time basis - but most don’t work. This means my male colleagues only have one job - the one they are paid to do. I am a lone parent so have two jobs - my paid job and then everything else. I struggle.

Same here. All women at my level I know don't have children, and all men have a SAHM wife (well, most of them still do work part-time for various charitable organisations so I am a bit unfair here).

@Helocariad Your post highlights other issues too: commuting times have become longer for many over the years and we're no longer supposed to take proper lunch breaks.

I strongly believe that part of the reason for longer commutes (outside of personal choice) is the bloody jobcenter saying you have to apply for jobs within a 1.5 hour commute each way. Apparently that's reasonable and I almost got sanctioned back when I was first on jobseekers allowance for refusing to do this (I couldn't physically do it in some cases but they based it on the assumption of everyone driving!).

But the notion that women with partners and children hardly did any paid work before the 1940s is untrue- think of domestic service/cleaning, factory work, laundry services, shops, hospitality services...

There's clear evidence in historical records in my region that they did farm work (not light farm work, back breaking harvesting work) abd fishing related work etc too.

This "nostcwknen didn't work outside the home til recently decades drives me mad". Then did, a large percentage did, and not just work traditionally thought of as female. Thry made up a huge proportion of factory workers etc

Honestly until I had kids I didn’t understand that women hadn’t achieved equality. Because until that point I felt pretty equal.
God, yes, this, absolutely. Was an eye opening moment for me too.

@Allsortsofroses

Before WW2 most women didn’t work outside the home.

I dont think that's actually true; I think I read that itcwas around 50% in Victorian times.

Working and lmc families could afford women women to work.

And remember work inside the home wasbt necessarily "just" childcare, housework etc- they took in time consuming, demanding work eg in my area of the UK, women were the main workers in the garment industry and they worked at home (their work collected by the factory cart/van at intervals).as will as in the factories.

sooooo not true

It's a certain time period and group that people are thinking of, and then it gets universalised. People think because there was a drop in female labour force participation in some groups in the mid 19th century that means women working is a new thing.

Mid 20th I mean! 1900s, 20th century!