To think medical school admissions favour people from a middle class (or upper middle class) background?

[CampionMN]

The medical school admissions process in this country is deeply flawed in my opinion. It favours people from middle class backgrounds (or upper middle class) and disadvantages people from poorer backgrounds.

I know plenty of people will come in to talk about how they grew up in a council estate, went to the local comp and went to medical school easily. I am aware this happens sometimes but we all know such situations are rare and not the norm.

The typical medical student (and doctor) is a middle class boy or girl who went to a private school or a highly selective grammar school (where teachers knew the medical school admissions process and coached them heavily beforehand). Had family access to doctors and had parents who were very involved in their medical school admission process (some of them wrote their child’s personal statements). This isn’t their fault, nor is it necessarily wrong. However I still feel medical schools should take these factors into account before granting admissions to students and admit those (from all backgrounds) who have a genuine desire to study medicine and a genuine passion to work as a doctor. Not just those who are doing it because it’s the expected path for them or because their parents really want it for them.

There are many, many people from disadvantaged backgrounds who have the desire to do medicine but will never be given the chance. This is because growing up in a home where parents are uneducated/have never been to university means they do not receive anywhere near the level of parental help required for medical school. Going to a not so great comprehensive school means a lot of teachers there cannot advise on how to navigate the entire process of getting into medical school (because it’s so rare for them to send a student to medical school). Having no access to doctors in the family means that no one can help you study for the admissions exams or help you write a good personal statement or help you get medical work experience. It also means your grades may not be the highest because you had additional challenges outside of school that may have affected your ability to revise properly (although they may be considered high for your school).

I also wonder if the selection process is contributing to doctors not being able to cope with working as a doctor. Struggling to accept criticism or being judged negatively. Struggling with to deal with 12 hour shifts (whereas most working class jobs, like care work are 12-12.5 hours long for a minimum wage salary and often no breaks because care homes are usually short staffed).

There’s a class problem within medicine (and dentistry too - everything I’ve said applies to becoming a dentist as well but slightly less so because of the difference in working hours and because dentistry isn’t necessarily seen as the end goal for all smart middle class students).

People from upper class backgrounds tend not to do medicine. So that’s why I haven’t included them.

I'm shocked the numbers are so low tbh though it's good to see growth.

"3,030 of the most disadvantaged students (POLAR4 quintile 1) have applied, up 8% from 2,800 last year; with 17,570 of the most advantaged (POLAR4 quintile 5) applying this year compared with 17,410 last year, up by just 1%."

@ParsleySageRosemary

Everything in Britain depends on who you know, not what you know. Having a family member in the area is virtually a must for every profession. If you don't have contacts life is shit. It's not right, and it's not good for anyone.

It's not true, either.

My daughter's experience in a very good state grammar was that those from less affluent backgrounds were steered towards bio chemistry/ bio medical science type courses. The very informed parents were strategic from very early on and asserted themselves in clearly stating their aims for their children and they were strongly steered towards medicine.

@2bazookas then you must be the only person in the country who doesn't realise it.

People aren't looking at the OPs question. She asked if she is being unreasonable to think medical schools favour middle class students not do more middle class students apply to medical school or are middle class student more successful at getting into medical school.

The OP is still BU in my opinion. I haven't examined every medical schools admissions policies but I think all of them want to ensure disadvantaged applicants are not at a disadvantage. It's crazy to think admissions staff actively only want students who are middle class.

@titchy

Medical school is expensive.

Eh? It costs the same as any other degree, including the much-maligned Media Studies from Uni of Localtown.

Bit it lasts 5 years, so more years to pay for.

Respectfully claryfying my point regarding the importance of stating extra curricular activities when applying to med school, certainly in the past. This was little to do with the choice of activity, sport, music, drama etc. It was more to do with proving a degree of personal dedication and most importantly having an interest that would give the student a necessary diversion from the stress of studying to become a Doctor. If this is no longer relevant I definitely can't understand why 🤷‍♀️😊

I wouldn’t be surprised if the biggest factor that stops students fro disadvantaged backgrounds from applying to medicine is misinformation.

Surely the woeful underfunding of state education, in this particular case careers advice, is the biggest factor.

But Jeremy Corbyn...

@Eviebea

Respectfully claryfying my point regarding the importance of stating extra curricular activities when applying to med school, certainly in the past. This was little to do with the choice of activity, sport, music, drama etc. It was more to do with proving a degree of personal dedication and most importantly having an interest that would give the student a necessary diversion from the stress of studying to become a Doctor. If this is no longer relevant I definitely can't understand why 🤷‍♀️😊

It is still relevant. The skills learnt in being committed to an activity over an extended period of time are important both when one is studying medicine and being a doctor and also in impressing at interview.

Some of what you say in OP is incorrect.
The level of support for students in terms of personal statements and guidance to get into university is likely to be better at a non-selective school. They have to work harder to get more students into good places and often are very clued up on contextual offers.
Btw it is harder to get into dentistry than medicine and attracts a very high rate of disadvantaged ethnic minority candidates compared to other subjects. I think medicine does too, but to a lesser extent. I think it is due to the higher aspirational motivation.

The main issue is the restrictive nature of medical and dental schools in this country compared to others. This is due to reluctance of the government to pay for their training when ready-trained professionals can be imported from other countries. And professional organisations wanting to keep the numbers restricted to avoid diluting the supply/demand level that keeps wages very very high.

@StillMedusa. Yes to your comment that the medical students you have seen are all attractive. I thought the same when I saw a few of DD cohort or spies on her social media . An entire flat of 10 students all very good looking .

@RedHelenB

Another thing I've remembered. She got rejected from Cardiff, her first MMI and asked for feedback. It stated that she hadn't worn a suit. She had a smart blouse and trousers on . Everyone else came dressed in a suit apparently. That was only 5 years ago

WTF! Do you have that in writing? It sounds so unlikely. Was she told to wear a suit? If I’d been given that as a reason for being rejected I’d have made a formal complaint (and started an angry Mumsnet thread)

@secondaries

Some of what you say in OP is incorrect. The level of support for students in terms of personal statements and guidance to get into university is likely to be better at a non-selective school. They have to work harder to get more students into good places and often are very clued up on contextual offers. Btw it is harder to get into dentistry than medicine and attracts a very high rate of disadvantaged ethnic minority candidates compared to other subjects. I think medicine does too, but to a lesser extent. I think it is due to the higher aspirational motivation.

The main issue is the restrictive nature of medical and dental schools in this country compared to others. This is due to reluctance of the government to pay for their training when ready-trained professionals can be imported from other countries. And professional organisations wanting to keep the numbers restricted to avoid diluting the supply/demand level that keeps wages very very high.

Support from teachers is better at a non-selective school What are you basing this off?

How is my comment incorrect when evidence has been provided in this thread that people who attended private schools and selective grammar schools are disproportionately represented in UK medical schools?

Where is the evidence supporting your view that non-selective schools, particularly the types of schools we’re talking about here where most pupils come from working class backgrounds and don’t go to university after leaving school, are “often very clued up on contextual offers”?

As a teacher, who has had over twenty five years of experience preparing students for entry into medical schools, alas I have to totally agree with you OP.

@Mushypeasandchipstogo

As a teacher, who has had over twenty five years of experience preparing students for entry into medical schools, alas I have to totally agree with you OP.

Private school parents gonna private school. Middle class parents gonna pay for tutoring and therefore grammar school. Nowt we can do about it, especially under Boris & Company.

As parents we could all send our kids to the local comp, of course. But I imagine in practice 90% of middle class parents would 😱 at the idea of this.

@DontBeCatty

People aren't looking at the OPs question. She asked if she is being unreasonable to think medical schools favour middle class students not do more middle class students apply to medical school or are middle class student more successful at getting into medical school.

The OP is still BU in my opinion. I haven't examined every medical schools admissions policies but I think all of them want to ensure disadvantaged applicants are not at a disadvantage. It's crazy to think admissions staff actively only want students who are middle class.

It’s not the unis themselves that favour anybody but the admissions process and nature of the course.

It’s competitive - so you can’t just rely on grades and need extracurriculars/work placements . Expensive - several years of uni , heavy work + unpaid placements.

Numbers are limited so you can’t give everyone who merits it a place.

As pp have said there are effort like a one year pre-med course for disadvantaged students but on the whole the admission process is mad not to disadvantage anybody but to solve the logical issue of filtering.

people who attended private schools and selective grammar schools are disproportionately represented in UK medical schools

All UK medical schools have to deliver the same core knowledge and skills, as agreed with the GMC. They have decided medical students have to have a good base knowledge of Biology, Chemistry and Maths to A level or equivalent before they start their medical studies. It's not the fault a lot of the people who get 3 or 4 top grade A levels including Biology, Chemistry and Maths or Physics are disproportionately from private schools and selective grammar schools.

To fix that, you need to pump money into state education so they have good labs and careers advice, and particularly work out how to recruit STEM graduates into teaching & and retain them.

Further back than that, you need to give really good intensive support to new parents so their children arrive at school with good social and language skills and a positive attitude to learning. We can whistle for that while Johnson and his crew are in power.

OP: you need to read the words I write not the words you expect.

I was referring to compared to other subjects. So does a lower proportion of working class go to uni to study Medicine/Dentistry than French or English Literature or Linguistics, for example? I would expect the proportion for Med/Dent to be higher, so the problem might be more about the progression of working class pupils to university in general, rather than specifically Med/Den. Or do you value Med/Dent more than French or English Lit?

Our local comprehensive basically writes their personal statements with them, or rewrites them if they are weak. They make all students take an EPQ which leads to a lower off at a lot of universities (even for Med/Dent at some places e.g. Barts, Plymouth).
Several local comprehensive is on Bristol Uni's list of schools that they give lower contextual offers to, one of which is a grammar confusingly.

Also you assume that selective grammars are populated by white middle class pupils, whereas the grammars I know have a much higher proprortion of students from certain disadvantaged ethic minorities than is representative of the the local area. Obviously if you only mean white working class when you refer to working class then this might not hold true, but there are disadvantaged working class pupils a plenty from certain ethnic backgrounds at selective grammars. So if these pupils are statistically more likely to go to Med/Dent then they are not necessarily middle-class, but may well be disadvantaged ethnic minorities.

It is not that I disagree with you per se, just a couple of the assumptions you made.

How is my comment incorrect when evidence has been provided in this thread that people who attended private schools and selective grammar schools are disproportionately represented in UK medical schools?
They are but not for the reason you think.

Brighmed is a programme from Brighton and Sussex medical school aim specifically to encourage pupils from lower backgrounds to consider Medicine as a profession. They offer 80 places from year 8 and they then offer guaranteed interviews if meeting certain criteria. Yet much less than 50% will end up applying for Medicine.

It's one thing to have the knowledge to do so, it's another to have the intellect, interest and dedication that is required to go on and study medicine.

@mummywithtwokidsplusdog

If you have a ‘poorer’ postcode you are now positively discriminated for by universities for all courses- including medicine.

This. I work in a University, and this absolutely happens. It's not a 'hey, come on in' decision, but it adds points to an application.

@ParsleySageRosemary

Everything in Britain depends on who you know, not what you know. Having a family member in the area is virtually a must for every profession. If you don't have contacts life is shit. It's not right, and it's not good for anyone.

I politely say that this is bollocks. One of my siblings has gone into the same profession as one of my parents (teaching). The other two of us are in completely different professions to either parent; and we are at more senior levels than they ever were. I certainly didn't know anyone in my profession before I applied for a low level job, post Uni. I just worked my way up.... My other sibling did a first degree, then a trainee contract, in a different profession. We were always encouraged, and education was hugely valued in our house. My parents were absolutely working class, and I was the first in either side of my family to go to Uni, as far as we are aware. If I'd have been brighter, I'd have liked to become a medical doctor. As it is, I'm a PhD doctor of something infinitely less useful!

Per capita cheese consumption correlates strongly with dying when entangled in bedsheets.

Should we eat less cheese?

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

people who attended private schools and selective grammar schools are disproportionately represented in UK medical schools

All UK medical schools have to deliver the same core knowledge and skills, as agreed with the GMC. They have decided medical students have to have a good base knowledge of Biology, Chemistry and Maths to A level or equivalent before they start their medical studies. It's not the fault a lot of the people who get 3 or 4 top grade A levels including Biology, Chemistry and Maths or Physics are disproportionately from private schools and selective grammar schools.

To fix that, you need to pump money into state education so they have good labs and careers advice, and particularly work out how to recruit STEM graduates into teaching & and retain them.

Further back than that, you need to give really good intensive support to new parents so their children arrive at school with good social and language skills and a positive attitude to learning. We can whistle for that while Johnson and his crew are in power.

Exactly there’s no point in dragging people down by simplifying applications and criteria etc the damage has already been done through a decade of substandard schooling and home env. solve this problem and you solve the ‘class’ issues

There’s also a subset of people who are ‘working class’ (certain ethnic minorities) but whose parents have a very strong commitment to education.

@HollaHolla

If you have a PhD, you presumably appreciate and value evidence. Evidence shows that who you know plays a significant part in the career you enter. Of course it does not follow that it applies to everyone, and you may not think it applies to you, but I think you have rose-tinted glasses on if you think all those internships that children coincedentally secure in the same firm their parent/other relative works in is not a factor in future career path.

I think it is important that those who have achieved success from a wc background do not dismiss the barriers that exist that prevent more people from wc backgrounds achieving the same.

You remind me of a female professor I spoke to who said they did not think there was any male/female inequality in academia because they were a senior professor . One swallow does not make a summer.

I understand the desire to think that we live in a true meritocracy, because that means those of us who have achieved truly deserve it, but the fact is that the meritocracy is something of an illusion.