To think medical school admissions favour people from a middle class (or upper middle class) background?

[CampionMN]

The medical school admissions process in this country is deeply flawed in my opinion. It favours people from middle class backgrounds (or upper middle class) and disadvantages people from poorer backgrounds.

I know plenty of people will come in to talk about how they grew up in a council estate, went to the local comp and went to medical school easily. I am aware this happens sometimes but we all know such situations are rare and not the norm.

The typical medical student (and doctor) is a middle class boy or girl who went to a private school or a highly selective grammar school (where teachers knew the medical school admissions process and coached them heavily beforehand). Had family access to doctors and had parents who were very involved in their medical school admission process (some of them wrote their child’s personal statements). This isn’t their fault, nor is it necessarily wrong. However I still feel medical schools should take these factors into account before granting admissions to students and admit those (from all backgrounds) who have a genuine desire to study medicine and a genuine passion to work as a doctor. Not just those who are doing it because it’s the expected path for them or because their parents really want it for them.

There are many, many people from disadvantaged backgrounds who have the desire to do medicine but will never be given the chance. This is because growing up in a home where parents are uneducated/have never been to university means they do not receive anywhere near the level of parental help required for medical school. Going to a not so great comprehensive school means a lot of teachers there cannot advise on how to navigate the entire process of getting into medical school (because it’s so rare for them to send a student to medical school). Having no access to doctors in the family means that no one can help you study for the admissions exams or help you write a good personal statement or help you get medical work experience. It also means your grades may not be the highest because you had additional challenges outside of school that may have affected your ability to revise properly (although they may be considered high for your school).

I also wonder if the selection process is contributing to doctors not being able to cope with working as a doctor. Struggling to accept criticism or being judged negatively. Struggling with to deal with 12 hour shifts (whereas most working class jobs, like care work are 12-12.5 hours long for a minimum wage salary and often no breaks because care homes are usually short staffed).

There’s a class problem within medicine (and dentistry too - everything I’ve said applies to becoming a dentist as well but slightly less so because of the difference in working hours and because dentistry isn’t necessarily seen as the end goal for all smart middle class students).

People from upper class backgrounds tend not to do medicine. So that’s why I haven’t included them.

@Parlamente

Placements abroad are not necessary at all medical schools.

Are they necessary at ANY? They aren’t at any of the Medical Schools I’m aware of but obviously I don’t know the ins and outs of every course. I’d be really surprised if overseas placements are actually a requirement for any UK course.

I have heard of Medical Schools with elective overseas placements but never mandatory. I can't vouch for every school though. All Medical Schools are regulated and the GMC is trying to make studying Medicine more accessible, not less.

AFAIK all UK med schools have an elective period, but I am not aware of anywhere that mandates this has to be overseas.

When I applied for a degree in nursing 10 years ago I wasn’t even invited for an interview.
The application asked if anyone from my family had been to university (no) and what my parents occupations were! From that they declined my application and I never got to be a nurse.

I work for a med school. They work extremely hard to improve the chances of pupils who don’t have the advantages you describe. They certainly don’t favour “middle class” kids just for being middle class.
Can you offer any evidence whatsoever for your views? A genuine desire to study medicine and a passion to work as a doctor, as you put it, is exactly what admissions teams look for. They also need to offer the places to those who they think can cope with the demands of the course. It’s not easy and each year they disappoint a great many applicants, because they have many times more applicants than places.

I think you’re being very unfair on the admissions teams by making assumptions about how they make their decisions without having any insight into how they work.

@BarleyG

When I applied for a degree in nursing 10 years ago I wasn’t even invited for an interview. The application asked if anyone from my family had been to university (no) and what my parents occupations were! From that they declined my application and I never got to be a nurse.

@BarleyG, I'm sorry you never got to be a nurse, but I would be absolutely astounded if you were turned down because of that information. Those questions are asked so that the university can monitor whether it's getting applicants from right across the social spectrum. Is it not more likely that you were turned down because of your academic qualifications, or a lack of work experience, or possibly your personal statement or reference were not as impressive as some?

Nursing courses are very competitive. Not everybody who applies will get on, sadly.

I think it is important for working class aspiring medical students and their families not to think that "more difficult" is synonymous with "impossible". Now whether it is a good career choice is a different matter, but it is certainly a feasible one. Middle class, privately educated people are over represented in the profession. It always has been thus, probably always will be, though as things deteriorate maybe it will get less attractive, who knows. But I don't think the blame for the disparity lies primarily with University admissions policies, it goes much deeper than that.
As a few people have said, the starting point has to be even considering it, and I suspect a lot of working class young people still don't. I still remember the peals of laughter from both other pupils and the teacher when I shared my ambition in a careers class at school.O'm not sure things have changed noticeably.
But someone must have seen something in me, because I got the chance, though looking back I have no idea how as I was woefully ill prepared and very naive. But I got the chance, took it and did pretty well. I was never quite a full member of the club in some ways. I know some of my colleagues always looked down on me and thought me common, but that's ok, because I didn't much like them either.
I don't think it does any harm to be aware of disadvantages that you are potentially at, as then you can prepare to tackle them. Just really look hard and be sure it is what you definitely want.

[quote DontBeCatty]@Stuckhere2021. I’m not sure why you would post that it was mandatory to have a placement abroad if you arent sure if it’s true. 🤷🏻‍♀️
If it’s Edinburgh University then the online info says
In Year 6, you will have the opportunity to undertake a medical elective: a period of study at another medical school or clinical placement provider. This is usually taken abroad[/quote]
Fair point - apologies.

Even still, an overseas experience is one of those things that looks good on the CV so even if optional, it can give advantage to those who can afford it.

@BarleyG

When I applied for a degree in nursing 10 years ago I wasn’t even invited for an interview. The application asked if anyone from my family had been to university (no) and what my parents occupations were! From that they declined my application and I never got to be a nurse.

There is absolutely no way you were declined a place based on that information!!! Not a chance.

I’m a doctor, left medical school about 10 years ago. Has anyone got any specific questions?

To some extent I agree with the OP but also massively disagree - I was the only state school (but grammar) educated in my friendship group. It’s not necessarily that the admissions are directly discriminatory but because it’s so competitive, you have to have a stellar CV and middle class children tend to have more opportunities. That’s my view.

Sorry i haven’t read thru the whole thread as to be honest, it seems to be filled with loads of rubbish and misinformation. Anyone reading this I’d ignore most of the advice as there is some random stuff on here - especially all the ‘my neighbours cousins child applied so I know all about it’

And the elective component in the last year is in NO WAY mandatory to be abroad, at any medical school. I did mine in Mansfield

The question of whether or not someone is the first one of their family to go to Uni is so unfair. Sure on my side, my DS isnt the first but on his dad's side, he would be the very first person to ever go past GCSEs!

The question of whether or not someone is the first one of their family to go to Uni is so unfair. Sure on my side, my DS isnt the first but on his dad's side, he would be the very first person to ever go past GCSEs!

Why is it unfair? Admissions tutors are not making offers simply based on this information. In some cases it might be taken into account as part of a contextual offer but it is often just data collection so universities can track who is going to university and where they are going to study which is important information for individual universities and the sector as a whole.

@SpinsForGin

The question of whether or not someone is the first one of their family to go to Uni is so unfair. Sure on my side, my DS isnt the first but on his dad's side, he would be the very first person to ever go past GCSEs!

Why is it unfair? Admissions tutors are not making offers simply based on this information. In some cases it might be taken into account as part of a contextual offer but it is often just data collection so universities can track who is going to university and where they are going to study which is important information for individual universities and the sector as a whole.

Oh right. DS has been to SO may supers and open days for this and each time he is told that their is a "weighting" for this with respect to applications. Misinterpreted, sorry.

Oh right. DS has been to SO may supers and open days for this and each time he is told that their is a "weighting" for this with respect to applications. Misinterpreted, sorry.

Like I mentioned, it may form part of a contextual offer but wouldn't guarantee an offer in itself.
It's really important data to collect as we know that first generation students are more likely to come from a disadvantaged background ( not all obviously!) are less likely to choose an elite university and are more likely to drop out. Knowing the demographics of your students can help you put the right support in place.

YABU.

Getting in is just the start. Sure, plenty of kids get a good leg up but the drop-out and failure rate is PHENOMINAL.

No amount of parental 'throwing money at it' is going to cut it with 5 years of brutal studying - the contact hours are mental, never mind practical stuff. Then, if they survive the 5 years at uni there's 2 years of foundation practice with shit pay and truly horrendous hours. If they want to progress any further then it's years more study.

Upper class kids don't apply because it's too hard and parents know no amount of cash can replace such a dedicated work ethic. Poor families are dissuaded because of myriad socio/economic, cultural and educational limitations.

For what it’s worth anyone reading this thread whose children are thinking of applying - I would not recommend it!

My DD is considering medicine ... she's an ethnic minority so from what I've read here so far from some posters she stands no chance!

Our "average applicant" is an Asian girl. Applicants who make it to interview are about 70% female & about 60% non-white is my guess. Where I work is an extremely 'white' part of England, btw.

DD (2nd yr med student now) said when she went to Open day at ... I think it was St. Mary's -- literally she was the only white girl in the room.

I don't know what the avg home set up is for those who get to interview. Lots of applicants have been carers themselves, they talk about looking after grandparents, young siblings, disabled siblings... Lots talk about working as HCAs and plenty do customer service jobs. Good people skills are essential to succeed on our course so we actively ask for evidence of those.

@MedSchoolRat

My DD is considering medicine ... she's an ethnic minority so from what I've read here so far from some posters she stands no chance! Our "average applicant" is an Asian girl. Applicants who make it to interview are about 70% female & about 60% non-white is my guess. Where I work is an extremely 'white' part of England, btw.

DD (2nd yr med student now) said when she went to Open day at ... I think it was St. Mary's -- literally she was the only white girl in the room.

I don't know what the avg home set up is for those who get to interview. Lots of applicants have been carers themselves, they talk about looking after grandparents, young siblings, disabled siblings... Lots talk about working as HCAs and plenty do customer service jobs. Good people skills are essential to succeed on our course so we actively ask for evidence of those.

In my culture (? Idk if that’s the correct word) the only acceptable professions are doctor, lawyer and engineer. The majority of my cousins are doctors!

Certain ethnic minorities and/or people from deprived backgrounds are more likely to go into ‘stable’ professions anyway. Because money and stability is important. The logic is that the world will always need doctors 😂😂😂

Yes, I remember reading years ago that It's quite a problem for Arts courses to attract a more diverse intake, as BAME students are far more likely to apply for vocational courses like Medicine, Dentistry, Economics, Law, Pharmacy etc. Strong family pressure, I assume, but also a realistic grasp that if it's going to be hard to get a good job because of prejudice and lack of connections, why make it harder by doing a less marketable degree?

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g
They have decided medical students have to have a good base knowledge of Biology, Chemistry and Maths to A level or equivalent before they start their medical studies.

A level maths is not a requirement.

Yes, sorry, too loosely phrased. A level Maths may not be required but very good Maths is an asset, I understand, especially in understanding and evaluating research.

@Stuckhere2021 - where you do your elective has very little bearing on your CV in the future unless it’s something incredibly niche. Most medical students don’t end up going into the specialty they thought they would at medical school so any ‘knowledge’ or contacts gained doesn’t amount to much. The real problem with medical school electives in my opinion is the voluntourism…

I did go abroad for my elective (New Zealand) but to do a placement in an area of medicine incredibly far away from what I’m training in. It was fun and I’m lucky to have been able to afford it but it hasn’t enhanced my career in any way! My school did two elective periods, I spent the other one at the university doing a research project. That one ended up with me getting a publication/conference presentation which was good CV points though (and obviously didn’t cost me anything).

I don’t want anybody to be put off applying on the misinformation that you have to be able to afford to do something exotic because that’s rubbish and the sort of damaging rumour that puts people off applying.

There’s many reasons why I’d tell somebody considering medicine to run for the hills and do almost anything else. Electives are not one of them.

I had after dinner drinks with a university lecturer recently. We were talking about the perception of university from W/c communities and what his dept does. He is from a small town in a European country, first in family to go to university, etc. He told me about an applicant they had and the most disadvantaged background imaginable that she came from. His dept felt that they had the money and resources to fill the gaps in her knowledge that less wealthy universities had. He told me that there were more knowledgeable applicants but they saw something in her they could felt they could work with, and most importantly, they knew how to repair/fix/support.

They showed so much insight into difficulty I was touched but then they were an ordinary down to earth person who knew modest living themselves. I think we underestimate how much tutors ‘see’ and know. The ones who are ambivalent to difficulties probably don’t go in for lecturing and assessments. I have found that many people who come from humble backgrounds themselves are motivated to ensure access for others. Some, from privileged backgrounds recognise their luck and want to widen access to it, too.