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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think medical school admissions favour people from a middle class (or upper middle class) background?

302 replies

CampionMN · 06/12/2021 11:45

The medical school admissions process in this country is deeply flawed in my opinion. It favours people from middle class backgrounds (or upper middle class) and disadvantages people from poorer backgrounds.

I know plenty of people will come in to talk about how they grew up in a council estate, went to the local comp and went to medical school easily. I am aware this happens sometimes but we all know such situations are rare and not the norm.

The typical medical student (and doctor) is a middle class boy or girl who went to a private school or a highly selective grammar school (where teachers knew the medical school admissions process and coached them heavily beforehand). Had family access to doctors and had parents who were very involved in their medical school admission process (some of them wrote their child’s personal statements). This isn’t their fault, nor is it necessarily wrong. However I still feel medical schools should take these factors into account before granting admissions to students and admit those (from all backgrounds) who have a genuine desire to study medicine and a genuine passion to work as a doctor. Not just those who are doing it because it’s the expected path for them or because their parents really want it for them.

There are many, many people from disadvantaged backgrounds who have the desire to do medicine but will never be given the chance. This is because growing up in a home where parents are uneducated/have never been to university means they do not receive anywhere near the level of parental help required for medical school. Going to a not so great comprehensive school means a lot of teachers there cannot advise on how to navigate the entire process of getting into medical school (because it’s so rare for them to send a student to medical school). Having no access to doctors in the family means that no one can help you study for the admissions exams or help you write a good personal statement or help you get medical work experience. It also means your grades may not be the highest because you had additional challenges outside of school that may have affected your ability to revise properly (although they may be considered high for your school).

I also wonder if the selection process is contributing to doctors not being able to cope with working as a doctor. Struggling to accept criticism or being judged negatively. Struggling with to deal with 12 hour shifts (whereas most working class jobs, like care work are 12-12.5 hours long for a minimum wage salary and often no breaks because care homes are usually short staffed).

There’s a class problem within medicine (and dentistry too - everything I’ve said applies to becoming a dentist as well but slightly less so because of the difference in working hours and because dentistry isn’t necessarily seen as the end goal for all smart middle class students).

People from upper class backgrounds tend not to do medicine. So that’s why I haven’t included them.

OP posts:
RedHelenB · 06/12/2021 21:11

Another thing I've remembered. She got rejected from Cardiff, her first MMI and asked for feedback. It stated that she hadn't worn a suit. She had a smart blouse and trousers on . Everyone else came dressed in a suit apparently. That was only 5 years ago

ParsleySageRosemary · 06/12/2021 21:12

Everything in Britain depends on who you know, not what you know. Having a family member in the area is virtually a must for every profession. If you don't have contacts life is shit. It's not right, and it's not good for anyone.

ParsleySageRosemary · 06/12/2021 21:16

And oh yes, the emphasis on having the right clothes and appearance. Britain's had that since I was starting out: it's supposed to have got better, but it hasn't. One massive blocker to anyone from a poor background and without family finances or some kind of support to call on. I was lucky to have someone to borrow clothes off for my first PAYE job interview. Meanwhile of course, politicians (all from family wealth or support nowadays) curse feckless youngsters from shit estates who are too stupid to do anything, the bastards.

MasterBeth · 06/12/2021 21:35

@titchy

A four to seven year degree costs considerably more than a three year Media Studies degree. HTH

Not upfront for fees and not upfront for kids from low income household. HTH.

Read the research, Working class students are more likely than middle class students to be intimidated by university fees, upfront or not. HTH.
CMZ2018 · 06/12/2021 21:38

Oh well

NinaDefoe · 06/12/2021 21:38

@mummywithtwokidsplusdog

If you have a ‘poorer’ postcode you are now positively discriminated for by universities for all courses- including medicine.
Just coming on here to say this very thing.
titchy · 06/12/2021 21:42

Read the research, Working class students are more likely than middle class students to be intimidated by university fees, upfront or not. HTH.

I have.... demand from working class students did not drop off when £9k tuition fees were introduced. It increased.

StillMedusa · 06/12/2021 21:47

MY DD1 is a doctor.
We are very ordinary, not wealthy, no priviledged background here.. 4 kids, all went to the local comp, and only one had music lessons (because he was the only one with any talent Grin)

shrugs She worked all through 6th form, sorted out her own work experience but also helped with a charity for disabled children from being a young teen as her youngest brother has autism.

She was (and is) however, bloody hard working and had a real understanding, even at 18 of how to talk to people; she has a natural way with her, and I think that, and her absolute determination showed when she went for interviews.
She was definitely in the minority at interviews (a lot WERE very obviously from independent schools) but her actual cohort were a mixed bunch of students.

The only thing that stood out for me, seeing her medic friends while she was at University, was how attractive most of them were! That sounds odd but as a bunch they were virtually all good looking.. the girls in a swishy haired country casual sort of way, the boys clean and preppy and I wonder if there is an unconscious bias there, or whether it is simply the expected uniform!

hygtt · 06/12/2021 21:51

You'd think, but actually the evidence doesn't show this at all. Demand for uni goes up year after year after year.

I'm sure demand is growing because in many cases you need to have degrees just to get interviews. But @titchy are more children from disadvantaged backgrounds going?

hygtt · 06/12/2021 21:52

"Figures published by the Department for Education show that 26.3 per cent of school pupils in England who received free school meals at age 15 progressed to university in 2018-19, compared to 45.1 per cent of pupils who did not receive the meals."

"The gap in progression rates between the two groups increased to 18.8 percentage points – up 0.2 percentage points since last year and the largest gap since 2006-7."

MedSchoolRat · 06/12/2021 21:53

I have been involved in admissions at a MedSchool.

DD is 2nd yr Med Student. She did 12 hour shifts in a care home (for money, not for work experience).

There are parts of OP & some other posts that I recognise & parts that completely don't fit my/our experience. Confused

What struck me is... why pick on medicine? Why not pick on engineering, teaching, law? All these professions have similar barriers (to medicine) for working class kids to get into them.

hygtt · 06/12/2021 21:56

The only thing that stood out for me, seeing her medic friends while she was at University, was how attractive most of them were! That sounds odd but as a bunch they were virtually all good looking.. the girls in a swishy haired country casual sort of way, the boys clean and preppy and I wonder if there is an unconscious bias there, or whether it is simply the expected uniform!

Sounds like an American medical drama 😆, can't say its representative of my experience at the GPs or hospital!

Northernlurker · 06/12/2021 22:02

Chip on your shoulder much OP? Hmm

My dd has nearly finished a medicine degree. She went to a very standard comprehensive. However we are very much aware that dh and I being graduates was an advantage. We knew how to support her (although tried to talk her out of medicine, it's a brutal career) and we can also afford to support her through six years of uni rather than three. Without an entirely communistic system you would never be able to remove those advantages from her. So not sure what the point if the post is? Other than a bit of a rant?

hygtt · 06/12/2021 22:06

So not sure what the point if the post is? Other than a bit of a rant?

I'm not sure why the OP is getting criticised for this point, you could level that accusation against most threads surely?!

titchy · 06/12/2021 22:08

@hygtt

You'd think, but actually the evidence doesn't show this at all. Demand for uni goes up year after year after year.

I'm sure demand is growing because in many cases you need to have degrees just to get interviews. But @titchy are more children from disadvantaged backgrounds going?

Yes. More children from disadvantaged backgrounds are going to uni.
titchy · 06/12/2021 22:10

Sorry to add - that's not to say that enough are, or that there isn't a problem of structural disadvantage - there is or that there isn't still work to do (esp in schools). But yes , there is ever increasing demand from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Musicaltheatremum · 06/12/2021 22:10

@titchy

Medical school is expensive.

Eh? It costs the same as any other degree, including the much-maligned Media Studies from Uni of Localtown.

But the years are longer so less time to work in holidays. You lose the summer holidays after 2nd year
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 06/12/2021 22:12

Probably the effect of a few years of night shifts and on call, @hygtt.

The medical school where I had a lowly position was one of the largest in the country and one of the things that struck me was how mixed the intake appeared to be ethnically (judging just by the names, I had very little face to face contact with students). I would hazard a guess that the intake was about half and half female and male too, which is a huge change in a generation.

It also had a substantial intake from local non-selective state schools. If applicants from such schools weren't on track to get the grades needed for a place in the main intake, they could apply for a place on a parallel medical course with an extra year at the start to consolidate their science knowledge before they merged with the other students and started their degree studies proper. I assume this gives them a chance to catch up with students from grammar and fee-paying schools with better staffing for the sciences.

Musicaltheatremum · 06/12/2021 22:13

Far more than 2 additional years. 5 for GP at least and about 10 for consultant

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 06/12/2021 22:16

Oh, and final word on this for now - lots and lots of medical students I had contact with were undertaking paid work alongside their studies. I knew this because I was arranging some additional, rather niche teaching sessions and often I would contact someone on our waiting list and they would reply that such and such a time was no good as they had a shift. I was astounded that they could fit it in alongside a really full on teaching/placement/assessment schedule, but in many cases I assume they had no choice. Good preparation for the years to come, I suppose.

Ickle37 · 06/12/2021 22:18

Looking at the type face and lack of grammatical errors- sniffing a rat.
Actually my only medical friends are Asian ( 2nd/3rd generation) . I also feel from recent covid coverage that our WHOLE NHS is looked after and overseen by either 1/2nd generation migrants, if not economic migrants in the first instance! I in fact have wondered in the past year- where ARE the " white" doctors you want so much.
When i had my daughter, i was looked afyer beautifully by a team of people not born in the UK; from surgeon to nurse.
I want the best people in the best roles, and if the white middle class cant cope after med school- so be it.

hygtt · 06/12/2021 22:19

Yes. More children from disadvantaged backgrounds are going to uni

Are more disadvantage children going to uni because overall more kids are going to uni & is it the same % growth as those from other backgrounds? The quotes I posted from google suggest not but I don't know hence why I googled.

hygtt · 06/12/2021 22:20

Probably the effect of a few years of night shifts and on call,

True!

titchy · 06/12/2021 22:29

@hygtt

Yes. More children from disadvantaged backgrounds are going to uni

Are more disadvantage children going to uni because overall more kids are going to uni & is it the same % growth as those from other backgrounds? The quotes I posted from google suggest not but I don't know hence why I googled.

Yes same % growth across all backgrounds. Lots of data on the UCAS website eg https://www.ucas.com/corporate/news-and-key-documents/news/most-disrupted-and-disadvantaged-aiming-high-university-choices
titchy · 06/12/2021 22:31

Nice graph from this report: https://www.ucas.com/file/147891/download?token=sjxwG1wA

To think medical school admissions favour people from a middle class (or upper middle class) background?