To think that "wokeism" is for the privileged few?

[Mooscow]

Wokeism and identity politics seems rife at the moment in the UK. But Canada and the US seem even worse. There is this massive push to avoid the possibility of ever offending anyone, ever. For example, I work for a North American company and we've just been given a long list of words never to use. This includes "female", "blind", "deaf", "blacklist", "homeless", "rule of thumb" and it goes on and on and on. So you can't say things like "turn a blind eye" or "tone deaf" etc. any more in case it offends a blind or deaf person. Really?!

I've just read an article in the FT (sorry can't share) that says the US has only sent 111million out of its pledge to send 1 billion vaccines to poorer countries. The US has 2 and a half times the amount of vaccines it needs for itself and Canada has ordered 8 times what it needs.

I know that vaccines and wokeism has little in common but it just struck me how so much effort is put into this new purity culture whilst at the same time demonstrating utter selfishness and lack of compassion for anyone else.

It's also like the push to remove the word women from healthcare such as cervical screening in case a transman, as a "cervix haver" 🤮 is offended at being grouped with women, while 40% of women (especially those without English as a first language and those in lower socio-economic groups) don't even know what a cervix is. But screw them, let's let them get cervical cancer while we pat ourselves on the back and virtue signal at making sure we don't offend by telling the truth the tiny, tiny proportion of trans people.

I wonder if the whole work/identity politics stuff is based in the fact that privileged people can effortlessly virtue signal to feel better about themselves whilst remaining selfish, uncaring and apathetic towards people who are actually in need or vulnerable. AIBU?

@DameFanny

And intersex people are by definition not one or the other *@arabellascott*. Don't erase them!

There is no third sex, DameFanny.

Look, I appreciate you don't seem to have spent much time looking into this. So you may be making genuinely innocent mistakes, here, and I'm sure you mean well. But if you spend a wee bit of time talking to people with DSDs or VISCs, and reading up on the subject, you will find that many of them would be hugely upset and offended to be discussed like this, to be described as 'other' than male or female.

@DameFanny

The idea that some people feel they're born in the wrong body and take steps to live the way that feels right to them. It made sense to me as a child, it makes sense to me as an adult.

This is your definition of 'transwoman'?

Some people? Any people? So I can be a transwoman? I have often felt my body is 'wrong' - I'm not entirely happy with certain bits of it, for sure. Especially since childbirth.

What does that mean for, say, a care worker who supports BLM and Me Too? Are they also elite hypocrites?

Are you a hypocrite if you have more than a certain amount of money, or does talking about 'woke' matters make you an awful person anyway?

I think people can support any cause they want as individuals. But on a larger scale, I see most woke agendas as being pushed by the rich and powerful who benefit by making lots of money from woke causes (Ben & Jerry's, Gillette, Hollywood etc) but also diverting the blame for injustices that have been perpetrated by the rich and powerful over centuries (the slave trade etc) towards the powerless white working classes. It's been a very useful and convenient scapegoat for them. They get to virtue signal, make loads of money in the process and turn a powerless and voiceless group (the white working class) into the baddies - "gammon", "knuckle draggers", "white trash", "pikeys" etc. It's actually a very clever tactic (divide and conquer).

@334bu There's been lots of talk on these boards and elsewhere about the awfulness of 'male looking' people in public loos, which has led to a lot of butch women - and just, non-'girly' women - being glared at and challenged in public loos.

I didn't see Alfonso's post, but being able to talk about women's rights and issues clearly using terms such as male and female is necessary to avoid discrimination on the grounds of sex and sexual orientation. Disbelief in gender identity ideology is protected in law as a belief, just as belief in gender identity ideology is. The Maya Forstater apoeal confirmed this.

I think people can support any cause they want as individuals. But on a larger scale, I see most woke agendas as being pushed by the rich and powerful who benefit by making lots of money from woke causes (Ben & Jerry's, Gillette, Hollywood etc) but also diverting the blame for injustices that have been perpetrated by the rich and powerful over centuries (the slave trade etc) towards the powerless white working classes. It's been a very useful and convenient scapegoat for them. They get to virtue signal, make loads of money in the process and turn a powerless and voiceless group (the white working class) into the baddies - "gammon", "knuckle draggers", "white trash", "pikeys" etc. It's actually a very clever tactic (divide and conquer).

This is a good point.

Anyway, sewing to do, back later

@lonelyapple

What does that mean for, say, a care worker who supports BLM and Me Too? Are they also elite hypocrites?

Are you a hypocrite if you have more than a certain amount of money, or does talking about 'woke' matters make you an awful person anyway?

I think people can support any cause they want as individuals. But on a larger scale, I see most woke agendas as being pushed by the rich and powerful who benefit by making lots of money from woke causes (Ben & Jerry's, Gillette, Hollywood etc) but also diverting the blame for injustices that have been perpetrated by the rich and powerful over centuries (the slave trade etc) towards the powerless white working classes. It's been a very useful and convenient scapegoat for them. They get to virtue signal, make loads of money in the process and turn a powerless and voiceless group (the white working class) into the baddies - "gammon", "knuckle draggers", "white trash", "pikeys" etc. It's actually a very clever tactic (divide and conquer).

Oh, yes. I had forgotten corporate virtue signalling. Feelgood campaigns that conveniently detract from tax evasion, poor treatment of staff, carbon emissions, etc.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I didn't see Alfonso's post, but being able to talk about women's rights and issues clearly using terms such as male and female is necessary to avoid discrimination on the grounds of sex and sexual orientation. Disbelief in gender identity ideology is protected in law as a belief, just as belief in gender identity ideology is. The Maya Forstater apoeal confirmed this.

I know. But apparently @MNHQ don't think so. Very disappointing.

Feelgood campaigns that conveniently detract from tax evasion, poor treatment of staff, carbon emissions, etc.

Exactly.

@334bu There's been lots of talk on these boards and elsewhere about the awfulness of 'male looking' people in public loos, which has led to a lot of butch women - and just, non-'girly' women - being glared at and challenged in public loos.
And you thought Megan Rapinhoe would be challenged? Really?

@DameFanny

Nope, there's also intersex people making up between 1 and 0.05% of the population. Plus an amazingly wide variety of hormonal differences, genital presentation etc.

What's your definition of a 'male body' @arabellascott? How will you make it fit every single instance of assigned male at birth human?

You're thinking that every male individual must conform to a list of traits for us to be able to recognise that they form a group, when it's the group as a whole that should have those traits.

Humans have ten digits on our hands as a group. This is a characteristic of our species. Occasional individuals have more or fewer, but it doesn't destabilise the meaningful category of human being.

[quote DameFanny]@334bu There's been lots of talk on these boards and elsewhere about the awfulness of 'male looking' people in public loos, which has led to a lot of butch women - and just, non-'girly' women - being glared at and challenged in public loos.[/quote]
What is the problem with asking politely 'excuse me, this is the ladies'? What will the woman in question do: smile and say I know or go ballistic? Why would she go ballistic, it is just a question.

A man in the womens toilets will either leave very quickly because they know they shouldn't be there and have some dark reason to be there, say sorry, my mistake and leave (most common reaction btw) or go ballistic because they know they shouldn't be there and they want to push womens boundaries. The challenge was then correct.

In both cases it takes courage to challenge someone else on being there and it protects those that don't dare do it. I don't see the problem, I have both challenged and, being very tall, been challenged. I smile btw and usually have a lovely chat with the woman who challenged me.

sanluca, that made me think of this thread - a lesbian being challenged in the public loo: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4413236-Fabulous-Lauren-Black-and-How-A-Butch-Lesbian-Reacts-to-A-Bathroom-Challenge

At least Mumsnet deleted DameFanny's post calling me a bigot. I'm not the one engaging in hate speech.

I'm glad!

I've asked @MNHQ why my post was deleted and why @DameFanny's personal attacks on me were allowed to stand. I've yet to receive an ackknowledgement. It's very disappointing.

Megan Rapinhoe is beautiful and is very clearly a woman. She doesn't even look butch to me?

@DameFanny

And intersex people are by definition not one or the other *@arabellascott*. Don't erase them!

I appreciate your heart is in the right place but you are labouring under a misapprehension. Medicine has moved on.

"Intersex" is an umbrella term that is being phased out as lay people incorrectly infer that people with such a condition are between the sexes, and envisage hermaphroditic slugs, which is very othering. Preferred terms now tend to be DSD (Disorder or Difference of Sexual Development) or CCSD (Congenital Condition of Sexual Development).

There seems to be no correlation between them and gender dysphoria.

I quote:

Initially the approach with [gender dysphoria] was similar to that for disorder of sex development, with a karyotype being routinely requested. An audit of UK clinics from 2013 to2015 (Table 1) revealed no differences from cytogenetic surveys of the UK newborn population and elsewhere.1011 Therefore, routine karyotyping of a child or adolescent with GD is not required unless any specific clinical features determine this to be necessary.

adc.bmj.com/content/103/7/631

If you follow the link, you will see that they found the rate of CCSDs for patients being assessed for gender dysphoria was the same as the rate for the wider populations.

You will see the table is labelled with the term aneuploidies.

An aneuploidy is what we call it when there is an abnormal number of chromosomes in the cell[s] of an organism for its species. For example, humans usually have 23 pairs, or 46 chromosomes, in our nucleated cells. When we don't (typically due to an error duringmeiosis), things do not go well. A famous example of aneuploidy is Down Syndrome, or Trisomy 21, so called because the cause of this condition is an extra chromosome in pair 21. (Totalling 47 chromosomes.)

Aneuploidies can happen with any of the chromosome pairs, but a large number of them aren't as well known as Down Syndrome, because their effects mean human fetuses conceived with them do not survive to adulthood. Some are so lethal that the fetus is always miscarried.

Naturally, aneuploidies can occur in pair 23, the sex chromosomes. These are people with medical conditions, who deserve to be treated with respect.

Saying that people with aneuploidies of pair 23 are neither male nor female is basically the same thing as saying that people with aneuploidies of any of the other 22 chromosome pairs aren't human.

Such a thing would be horrifically ableist, and a totally inappropriate attitude to have on this board, as we are on a parenting site. Disablism towards people for congenital conditions is never acceptable here.

[quote ArabellaScott]sanluca, that made me think of this thread - a lesbian being challenged in the public loo: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4413236-Fabulous-Lauren-Black-and-How-A-Butch-Lesbian-Reacts-to-A-Bathroom-Challenge[/quote]
I always wonder about this argument on 'you can't challenge a man because they might be a woman', if those women have never asked a male looking person to leave or what they were doing there. Either they are very brave and never intimidated or uncomfortable but teaching themselves to put others first. Or just blindly ignorant.

Btw, Arabella, best way to avoid those challenges for everyone, is if transwomen would just have the common courtesy of using their own sex segregated toilets for male humans instead of demanding to use the female ones because of their gender identity feelings.

There was a move for it, especially in the sports that weren't so reliant on muscle. And you get exceptional women in every sport that could compete.

Like you get exceptional men who can give birth?

Women and men have different bodies. Women are not small men with a couple of extra organs. People sometimes suggest that female athletes should just "try harder", but this is like telling a man to "try harder" to get pregnant.

extract

If you know sport, you know this beyond a reasonable doubt: there is an average 10-12% performance gap between elite males and elite females. The gap is smaller between elite females and non-elite males, but it’s still insurmountable and that’s ultimately what matters. Translating these statistics into real world results, we see, for example, that:

Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys. (Yes, that’s the right number of zeros.)

The same is true of Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Allyson Felix’s 400 meters lifetime best of 49.26. Just in the single year 2017, men and boys around the world outperformed her more than 15,000 times.

This differential isn’t the result of boys and men having a male identity, more resources, better training, or superior discipline. It’s because they have an androgenized body.

Continues: law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

Not that I was ever fussed, sport is mostly an overrated way to put some people off physical activity for life, encourage others to wreck their bodies and still others to gamble. Meh.

I find that people often sneer at women who want single-sex sport with women for placing too much importance on sport. What puzzles me is that no-one ever sneers at transwomen for placing too much importance on wanting to play sport with women.

Anyway, I'd like to discuss the topic of encouraging women to wreck their bodies. Elite female athletes already have to tread a careful line between achieving peak performance and wrecking their bodies. What happens when we force them to try to close the 10% performance gap between males and females, in order to win team places?

Well, I'll tell you. They will try, to their physical detriment. Have you heard of "female athlete triad"? The incidence rate of that is going to go up.

extract

THE FEMALE ATHLETE TRIAD: A SYSTEMIC HEALTH CRISIS IN WOMEN’S PRO-SPORTS

content warning discussion of Eating Disorders

Being a professional athlete can be physically and mentally exhausting. Pro-athletes are expected to beat the top of their game. They are required to spend a significant amount of time training and conditioning in order to strengthen their bodies and build endurance. Of course, years of training and physical conditioning can lead to greatness in the pro-sports industry but at what cost?

Female athletes face systemic health issues and sexism within the pro-sports industry due to rigorous training and the pressure to maintain a certain body image. Exhaustive training combined with economic anxieties and career stress can put female athletes at risk of developing unhealthy eating habits, menstrual dysfunction, and poor bone health.

The Female Athlete Triad

“The female athlete triad (the triad) is an interrelationship of menstrual dysfunction, low energy availability (with or without an eating disorder), and decreased bone mineral density; it is relatively common among young women participating in sports”, according to a 2012 study by the National Center for Biotechnology Informationhealth journal.

The triad commonly affects young female athletes but it can later cause long-term effects that follow them into adulthood and their professional careers. It is caused by an “imbalance of energy intake and energy expenditure”, says Neville H. Golden in a 2002 study by theInternational Journal of Adolescent Medicine and Health. At a young age, athletes are more susceptible to advice from their trainers and mentors, which can negatively affect their health.

Continues:
www.hercampus.com/school/sjsu/the-female-athlete-triad-a-systemic-health-crisis-in-womens-pro-sports/

I got an answer from @MNHQ* as to why my post was deleted but did not explain why personal attacks against me were allowed to stand. Very disappointing, as I have autism and it is important for me that communication is clear and consistent.

*I know that saying anything more than that will lead to me being banned, despite my explaining about my disability.

Alfonso Hugs. It's often very difficult, isn't it?

@Marchingredsoldiers

That list of words not to say is annoying. I like the idea behind wokeness (a word?) - basically empathy. But when it become a tool to censor, it is self-defeating.

But why is "homeless" offensive? It is a important social problem. What do you use instead - or am i being horribly ignorant?

Calling someone homeless defines them by their situation, it is a person suffering from poverty/homelessness. Though this is the only one on the list that I agree with.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Alfonso Hugs. It's often very difficult, isn't it?

Thank you, @PurgatoryOfPotholes. That is a very kind thing for you to say and it means a lot to hear that.