Ageing population crisis

[Cucumberpitta]

Medical intervention means we are living longer than ever before. We are spending a larger proportion of our lives dependent on care because we are disabled, in pain, and/or without mental capacity.

There are not enough carers because it's an undervalued role with shit pay.
There seems to be no planning by govt to prepare for this shift - there will literally not be enough carers or tax payers to look after the elderly.

Not to mention the questionable morality of preventing the death of someone for them to live in pain, doubly incontinent, immobile and confused; with insufficient care because there's just not enough funding for them.

People talk of the immigration crisis, climate crisis....

The percentage of elderly needing care is set to skyrocket and we can't even look after the current numbers properly.

What is going to happen?

I haven't worked as a carer but I lost two family members to dementia, and it was horrific. But I still think it's really complicated - my grandmother had days when she asked to die (which was awful) but she had days when she didn't, and I think if anyone had tried to euthanize her it would have been against her will when she was terrified, and that would have been the case whatever she'd signed in advance. The problem was that in hindsight it would have been so much kinder if she'd had three less years, but if she'd died at the start of that time we'd have all thought she'd gone too soon, and that she'd had more good time left (she hadn't).

Ultimately she died of pneumonia (though she also had terminal brain cancer at the time), and it was in many ways a blessed relief. Though we were told it was a relatively kind death but since all the graphic descriptions of Covid deaths have come out I now wonder if that was a white lie, as the mechanisms of death seem to be the same.

Totally appreciate the ethical concerns regarding euthanasia and the minefield it could create. I do however think it should be possible to state and have documented earlier on in our lives whether we wish to have our life prolonged if something as awful as Dementia hits us.

Ultimately she died of pneumonia (though she also had terminal brain cancer at the time), and it was in many ways a blessed relief. Though we were told it was a relatively kind death but since all the graphic descriptions of Covid deaths have come out I now wonder if that was a white lie, as the mechanisms of death seem to be the same.

I was with my mum when she died of pneumonia and it was peaceful.

@ShirleyPhallus

I think what I love most about mumsnet is the positivity

Would you like some existential dread to go with your tea 😁

Your premise is incorrect. We are living longer, but getting "old" later. Total time spent in poor health remains the same.

@SelkieQualia

Your premise is incorrect. We are living longer, but getting "old" later. Total time spent in poor health remains the same.

That isn't true. Life expectancy has increased faster than healthy life expectancy.

@ShirleyPhallus

I think what I love most about mumsnet is the positivity

I’m so sorry about your diagnosis .

No, of course not. But if someone else did want to die, they should have that choice.

I see it as similar to abortion. Other women’s right to terminate their pregnancy doesn’t mean that I should do likewise.

I do understand how it might feel like people are taking swings at your situation though.

There is the alternative to euthanasia, by adequately funding social care. If we pay people well they then spend their money in our society. It makes sense to have money circulating in our society. Having a population of working poor is counterproductive to building wealth and health.
Then we could have more flexible working, so instead of care home 7am-7pm shifts. There could be 8/9/10am starts with six hour shifts. As many homes are owned by the same company it wouldn't be difficult to organise.
Then we could have a benefit system which favours work, pays for each child and has realistic housing costs built in, a bit like the old tax credit system.
We then process asylum claims quickly, help them into work and deport those who are refused. that would create jobs and a labour force.
I agree that SC for disabled adults is always ignored on here. Healthy younger people who have LD'S were DNR'd before 80 year olds. We would be in danger of going back there.
I don't understand some of the death/lingering life stories. There doesn't seem to be consistency. I've had elderly relatives helped to die via a sedative, it is allowed if the person and family agree. Likewise a plan can be put in place to refuse treatments after stroke etc. So start having those conversations. More people are living longer healthily. But more children are now living with conditions that would have once killed them. It's as much disability as age that's pushing up the SC bill. Someone mentioned obesity bringing the cost down. However health and SC can be needed from late 40's. It brings new challenges. Someone mentioned the prison population. It's at least double the cost of keeping a person in prison than in a care home. If it's a matter of getting the calculated out when deciding who lives. Let's not deny that these conversations are driven by costs.

@Sugarplumfairy65

Being able to choose euthanasia doesn't mean that people with terminal illnesses are being put down. People can make a choice to end their suffering, doesn't mean that they all do (most don't). In countries where it's a choice they don't exactly force people either, do they?

Those that can afford a place will go into OA care home adequately staffed. When the money runs out you can go in a list for a Govt facility or be offered a pill...

Those who can't afford it will be cared for by family with multi generational reciprocal care the new thing.

Those who have no family will be offered a Govt place, but the service will be minimal and after a year you'll be reviewed and offered a pill.... The Govt will ultimately u-turn in employing foreigners under terms so shitty no one else will do it to staff these places

Those who have family but they won't provide care or who otherwise falls through the cracks will die alone at home. If they make it to hospital, they'll be Govt home or pill

Anyone going into hospital aged 70+ will have a discussion around DNR and pre agreed euthanasia for selected conditions.

Tax credits will support up to five children and chidk care for 2+ will be extended. Nurseries will pop up next to Govt care homes to help the childcare to work commute easier

I think the issue is our need to preserve life at all costs. We saw it last year, 90yo's shut away alone for fear of a virus which even the vast majority of the elderly survive. But should that 90yo have caught covid, and had a bad turn with it, is it reasonable to take them into hospital and try to save that life, or would it have been better to make them comfortable to pass away in the presence of their loving family?

Bed blocking is a massive issue. My Nan broke her wrist, quite badly, when she was 85. Because she lived alone and all us family members worked full time, had kids, or lived far away etc, we couldn't give her the full time care she required to manage her days with a broken wrist (her other hand was useless due to arthritis).

Therefore she stayed in hospital until a care plan could be arranged and carers listed to attend her. This took 10 days! 10 days when she didnt really need that bed.

Its the same everywhere, waiting for care home spaces, or carers to be available before someone can go home.

Our carers are undervalued, underpaid and our care homes are underfunded.

If you havent seen it already, watch the Ed Balls documentary on BBC Iplayer.

Why doesn't the Government just print a few billion to pay for it, they love printing money for their rich pals so what's a few extra billion added to the national debt? They can print billions to bail out the banks who provide far less value to society than carers and have never been punished for what they did (in fact they made even more money). Print a billion and pay carers a decent wage and then the problem would be solved instantly. We need more carers and less bankers.

[quote bedheadedzombie]@Sugarplumfairy65

Being able to choose euthanasia doesn't mean that people with terminal illnesses are being put down. People can make a choice to end their suffering, doesn't mean that they all do (most don't). In countries where it's a choice they don't exactly force people either, do they?[/quote]
I should imagine that some elderly people would feel like they had to do it because they feel like a burden to their family.

Do you really think that a few people choosing to go that way would ease the situation?

In some countries, rather than see the elderly as a burden to be careful for by others, families actually take care of their own. Just as they used to do in this country.

In some countries, rather than see the elderly as a burden to be careful for by others, families actually take care of their own. Just as they used to do in this country.

🙄 Lots of people would like to care for family but for various reasons can't.

@Sugarplumfairy65

I should imagine that some elderly people would feel like they had to do it because they feel like a burden to their family.
I live in a country where it is legal and you need to suffer without a better future being possible before you can get euthanasia. This tend to be people in their last leg of illness, already bed ridden and dying. They sure as hell aren't a burden because there are carers/nurses/doctors for that. You sound like you know nothing about legal euthanasia and when it is used. In practice, and when I've been present it was literally the choice between suffering in a bed till you have an awful death and possibly alone or a peaceful goodbye with all your children holding your hand while you are sedated (and after that euthanised, so they didn't feel their death. It can be a beautiful goodbye. I've been present and would choose it about slowly suffocating.

Do you really think that a few people choosing to go that way would ease the situation?

No, not enough, but I still think it should be legal everywhere having seen it first hand twice.

In some countries, rather than see the elderly as a burden to be careful for by others, families actually take care of their own. Just as they used to do in this country.

Some people don't have families. Some people were awful to their families. Sometimes they live far apart. Sometimes the younger generation have their own needs and can't help.

@bedheadedzombie
The point that @Sugarplumfairy65 was making is that euthanasia laws have been abused in countries where it is legal. I fully agree that elderly can be coerced into consent and worse. You May have only witness “beautiful goodbyes” but they aren’t all beautiful and you’re in denial of you think your experiences = all the experiences that have happened. Take this case for example.

Three years ago, a 74-year-old Dutch woman with dementia was euthanized by a doctor who drugged the patient’s coffee without her knowledge and then had family members physically restrain her for the final lethal injection.

The doctor, who has not been publicly named, was cleared of all wrongdoing by a court in the Netherlands on Wednesday, “clarifying” the country’s euthanasia law enacted in 2002 in relation to patients with “severe dementia,” according to MedicalXPress.

Patients with dementia can now be killed by their doctors even if they strongly object to euthanasia at the time, so long as they have previously given consent for the fatal procedure. In other words, if a patient were to change their mind about the assisted suicide, a doctor could still legally kill them against their will.
www.dailywire.com/news/dutch-woman-euthanized-against-her-will-doctor-was-amanda-prestigiacomo

They will probably put the retirement age up. Again.

[quote EmpressCixi]@bedheadedzombie
The point that @Sugarplumfairy65 was making is that euthanasia laws have been abused in countries where it is legal. I fully agree that elderly can be coerced into consent and worse. You May have only witness “beautiful goodbyes” but they aren’t all beautiful and you’re in denial of you think your experiences = all the experiences that have happened. Take this case for example.

Three years ago, a 74-year-old Dutch woman with dementia was euthanized by a doctor who drugged the patient’s coffee without her knowledge and then had family members physically restrain her for the final lethal injection.

The doctor, who has not been publicly named, was cleared of all wrongdoing by a court in the Netherlands on Wednesday, “clarifying” the country’s euthanasia law enacted in 2002 in relation to patients with “severe dementia,” according to MedicalXPress.

Patients with dementia can now be killed by their doctors even if they strongly object to euthanasia at the time, so long as they have previously given consent for the fatal procedure. In other words, if a patient were to change their mind about the assisted suicide, a doctor could still legally kill them against their will.
www.dailywire.com/news/dutch-woman-euthanized-against-her-will-doctor-was-amanda-prestigiacomo[/quote]
Please also read this www.trouw.nl/zorg/de-hoge-raad-geeft-artsen-ruimte-om-de-doodswens-van-een-patient-met-dementie-te-interpreteren~bb753506/

Use google translate if you have to. She had requested euthanasia. She was clearly suffering. She made an involuntary movement when they put the drip in and that was why she was restrained. That is a lot less sensationalist than you make it out to be.

Part of the problem is our extremely low birth rate. We need 2.1 children per woman to keep the population stable and it’s nowhere near. This is going to lead to an unsustainable burden on fewer and fewer young people.

@CruCru I don't think people realise this. On the environment threads you often see people saying people need to stop having dc but that's not true for many countries.

My biggest concern about all this is that alot of people now are choosing not to have children. Now I'm not saying you should kids to care for you at all, because I don't agree with this. But this is what I've seen with elderly relatives over the past few years.....
My aunt has never been married or had children. My mum (her niece) luckily was able to keep an eye on her and then she needed to go into a care home. My mum had to do a huge amount of difficult paperwork, and sorting finances etc and she's just a distant relative. Never been close or anything. In the home itself if my aunt requires anything at all such as toiletries, clothes, etc my mum has to go out and buy them all and take them in.
I absolutely dread to think what happens to the elderly people who have no family to advocate for them. Who gets them these things?
Another elderly relative in hospital also had dementia. Luckily his son was able to be there most of the time. If he wasn't the man wouldn't have hardly eaten, drank or toileted.
A local pensioner with dementia was found dead due to wandering off and again having no family to check on them or keep on eye on their medical needs.
People don't like to think about what they might end up like when they are eldey. My dad is 73 now and won't even discuss anything. Refuses to think about himself ageing at all.
Treatment of the elderly in this country is absolutely dreadful and when your that age yourself and experiencing it your too ill or infirm to be able to make any changes

@bedheadedzombie
She had requested euthanasia.
The report clearly states that she had not requested euthanasia verbally or otherwise. She had only stated in a living will written one year prior that she “I want to make use of the legal right to undergo euthanasia whenever I think the time is right for this… Trusting that at the time when the quality of my life has become so poor, I would like for my request for euthanasia to be honoured.” According to the report, her husband requested that the doctor euthanise her when she was first admitted. The case report is clear that she never verbally requested euthanasia.

She was clearly suffering.
She was admitted to a care home because her husband refused to care for her, where she regularly told her caregivers that she wanted to die. But when she was asked whether she wanted to die, several times she answered, ‘But not just now, it’s not so bad yet!’ The determination of suffering was largely based on videos of her distress at her husband leaving her there after visiting.

She made an involuntary movement when they put the drip in and that was why she was restrained

It wasn’t an “involuntary movement”

She drank coffee laced with a sedative Dormicon without her knowledge that was supposed to make her sleepy. It was testified that “The geriatrician placed a sedative in Mrs A’s coffee without informing her because she ‘would have asked questions about (the sedative) and refused to take it’, and because ‘the physician wanted to prevent a struggle during the euthanasia'.” But when she did not fall asleep, the doctor injected more sedative without her consent. The doctor then returned with the lethal IV drugs at which point she roused herself and tried to get up out of bed. The family then held her down while the fatal drug was administered. The doctor testified that
“Mrs A ‘tried to get up during the injection of the thiopental. Then the patient’s family helped to hold the patient in place, and the physician quickly administered the rest of the thiopental'. At that point, the geriatrician administered a final dose of a neuromuscular blocker to complete the euthanasia. The geriatrician later reported to the euthanasia review committee that ‘the patient was not mentally competent, so her utterance at (the moment of euthanasia) was not relevant in the physician’s opinion. Even if the patient had said at that moment: "I don’t want to die", the physician would have continued with the termination of life.”
jme.bmj.com/content/45/2/84

In some countries, rather than see the elderly as a burden to be careful for by others, families actually take care of their own. Just as they used to do in this country

Yes but the "elderly" used to generally be younger. And they didn't have dementia. They just needed cooking for etc. That is a different sort of care to two people being required to get someone to the loo and needing a hoist etc. Needs are more complex now.

My aunt has never been married or had children. My mum (her niece) luckily was able to keep an eye on her and then she needed to go into a care home. My mum had to do a huge amount of difficult paperwork, and sorting finances etc and she's just a distant relative. Never been close or anything. In the home itself if my aunt requires anything at all such as toiletries, clothes, etc my mum has to go out and buy them all and take them in.
I absolutely dread to think what happens to the elderly people who have no family to advocate for them. Who gets them these things?

Care staff generally, and donations from other families. Most care homes will supply the basics like soap though. I've taken shower gels, hand cream, hair brushes, bobbles, razors etc regularly.

I'm in a shit place right now with how disillusioned and resentful I feel about social care (or more specifically, attitudes from a society we support in no small way, absolutely not the actual job I do every day), so this is going to sound harsh, but it's how I feel.
I'm sick to death of being taken for granted by the government, care providers and society. We're written off as unskilled, uneducated and uninspired to do any better, we're almost resented and at times vilified, blamed repeatedly for the results of systematic failures and profit seeking/money saving. I'm subsidising social care by buying my own equipment, giving regular free work and working for a wage that you can barely survive on, doing extra work because there's not enough staff to go around, having no breaks, and soon I'm going to be paying more NI so that people who already have more than I do can keep more of it. And yes, I'm bloody bitter about it right now.
Demand after demand is made with sod all in return, yet when the issues are brought up that keep people away from working in this industry people would rather talk about immigration and euthanasia than improving the conditions within social care. Though those discussions have their place they're not going to fix the problems.
Ultimately the people needing the services are the ones who will suffer, and the only people that can speak up for them are ignored, vilified, blamed and mocked.