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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Ageing population crisis

127 replies

Cucumberpitta · 03/12/2021 07:32

Medical intervention means we are living longer than ever before. We are spending a larger proportion of our lives dependent on care because we are disabled, in pain, and/or without mental capacity.

There are not enough carers because it's an undervalued role with shit pay.
There seems to be no planning by govt to prepare for this shift - there will literally not be enough carers or tax payers to look after the elderly.

Not to mention the questionable morality of preventing the death of someone for them to live in pain, doubly incontinent, immobile and confused; with insufficient care because there's just not enough funding for them.

People talk of the immigration crisis, climate crisis....

The percentage of elderly needing care is set to skyrocket and we can't even look after the current numbers properly.

What is going to happen?

OP posts:

Nsky · 03/12/2021 09:06

It’s tragic, and I get angry that’s it’s just about the elderly, what of all those with learning disabilities?
Far less thought for them, and lack of special schools, and less purpose built accommodation.

Ilikewinter · 03/12/2021 09:06

I have an incurable cancer and need some care with my daily living. I'll always need this care. Does this mean I should be put down?

No one is saying you should be put down, however you should have the choice that once your ready to go you can go.
My MIL had a terrible last few months with cancer and desperately wanted to pass away instead of being in the pain she was in, she wasnt living just existing.

GnomeDePlume · 03/12/2021 09:12

@fakereview I am very pragmatic. I have seen enough A&E programmes to know what is involved in resuscitation and the likelihood of a positive outcome.

fannyadamson · 03/12/2021 09:12

@Amalfa

We need to legalise euthanasia imo. When people are terminally ill or have dementia they should be able to go to sleep as peacefully as animals do.

Ffs. have a conversation about euthanasia, yes. .but when it it framed in the context of solving the care crisis. .that is a dangerous place to go.

Amalfa · 03/12/2021 09:13

But that’s what’s causing the care crisis. Keeping people alive way past the time when they have no quality of life. I think it’s very relevant.

Tiny2018 · 03/12/2021 09:15

I currently work in a care home. I started on the nursing wards, which mainly consisted of those with Dementia. It is absolutely soul destroying to watch these people suffer the way they do. I am now in the kitchen as hours suit childcare better but I am consequently a huge advocate for legalizing Euthanasia. There is simply no quality of life for these people, most of whom are being barely kept alive by underpaid and overworked carers who only have the time to cater to their physical needs.

It has made me seriously question my mortality and I know that if I ever deteriorated to the point some of these poor individuals have, is want to be spared of the suffering.

JamAutistically · 03/12/2021 09:16

@Amalfa

We need to legalise euthanasia imo. When people are terminally ill or have dementia they should be able to go to sleep as peacefully as animals do.

I agree. I've never understood leaving people to suffer tremendously with no hope, just for the sake of being alive. What exactly is the point of living when you can't...actually live. I hope I'm allowed a peaceful sleep if I get anywhere near that point.

JamAutistically · 03/12/2021 09:17

@Tal45

I think everyone should have the right to choose euthanasia if they have dementia/are in constant pain that can't be alleviated/have a terminal condition. I think it's awful when people go to court suffering and begging to be allowed to die and are told no it's not legal. There is literally no reason to force people to live against their will except that some people don't like the idea of euthanasia - well some people don't like the idea of abortion either but women are given autonomy over their own bodies there - why not in this case?

Completely agree.

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 03/12/2021 09:20

This government doesn’t prepare for things - it just makes it someone else’s problem when they happen

It is a time bomb

With all the anti immigration crap, and the shoddy way children are treated in the U.K. (equated to someone’s dog ffs) it’s no wonder we’re in this situation

fannyadamson · 03/12/2021 09:22

@Amalfa

But that’s what’s causing the care crisis. Keeping people alive way past the time when they have no quality of life. I think it’s very relevant.

This train of thought makes me very angry. yes there is an argument for euthanasia. yes we need to solve the care crisis. but euthanasia is NOT the answer. and actually whilst this seems to be a common held view that it would be an answer I would have to be against it. tge case for euthanasia can only be based on the individual ..where otherwise does it lead?

GnomeDePlume · 03/12/2021 09:27

Euthanasia for dementia poses a huge ethical problem. At what point can a person say 'that's enough for me now'? A fit active person may say that being stuck in a chair in a care home would be unbearable but the reality is the decline happens over time. At the point where a person might objectively say 'that's enough for me now' they are probably past the point of saying it.

That then means that someone has to say 'that's enough for you now'. Which is very different.

ronniz · 03/12/2021 09:28

As you said this will hit earlier than the climate crisis & will have a huge impact, it keeps me awake at night.

The new tax next yr will be a drop in the ocean & I can't see the NHS existing in its current state in the next 10 years. Then what happens?

As you say who will pay for it? There will not be enough young people

DaisyandSimeon · 03/12/2021 09:30

You're post is very negative. Not only are older people living longer, but a good number are living more healthily. My 70 yo mum does masses of child care for me, and regularly swims, ice skates and walks. 50 years ago a 70 yo would be regarded as decrepit and in need of care, now many are 90 before they need care.

Also many older people have significant pensions and housing so live quite comfortable lives. They are not all living in poverty.

I agree we need to have an option for voluntary euthanasia for very sick people who are tired of life. My mum says she has enough money to swan off to Switzerland when she's had enough!

ronniz · 03/12/2021 09:31

To get through, immigration is probably the answer, Brexit is badly timed for that.

Well yes & immigration is about being attractive to immigrants, lots of countries will be competing for immigrants.

"23 nations - including Spain and Japan - are expected to see their populations halve by 2100."

Lairymary · 03/12/2021 09:32

"What is going to happen?"

Create a pandemic. That'll kill off a bunch

Artichokeleaves · 03/12/2021 09:34

@GnomeDePlume

That then means that someone has to say 'that's enough for you now'. Which is very different.

I agree. Its an absolute ethical minefield.

A start would be more careful consideration and discussion about what to treat aggressively and when to let nature take its course with patients. One of my grandparents was given heroic surgery, she was never able to come home, she had dementia following the anaesthetic and never really knew any of us again, and then spent two years being physically kept fed and clean in a nursing home with no other quality of life. I felt so guilty as she would have hated it so much. With hindsight it would have been so much better to have agreed to keep her comfortable, not to do the surgery, and for her to have died at home, in her own bed, with her loved ones and to have done so in her right mind. A friend's DM has recently also been revived and revived after multiple falls and seizures and is now barracked in a care facility in much the same situation. No one was brave enough to let her go when her body was so clearly saying it was time.

VikingVolva · 03/12/2021 09:35

@Iggly

This isn’t new and has been talked about for at least ten years. And no government has the will to get a grip and deal with it.

Yes, it's been talked about a lot

But attempts at action have been stymied, possible because it is hard to get the nation behind the need to improve the capacity for social care. I just don't think people take the long view, but that is what is needed.

The dreadful shortfalls on social care are putting huge pressure on NHS. Bed blocking is back.

That might get a bit more attention to the need to improve and expand social care considerably.

ronniz · 03/12/2021 09:36

I think people get the issue confused, it's not about getting rid of old people or condemning all old people as unfit, it's the lack of planning. The lack of care & funding now is bad, what's it going to be like in 20 years times when I might need it? The younger generations don't have the same housing wealth & pensions to "help" fund it so where does the money come from.

ronniz · 03/12/2021 09:38

I was in & out of hospital recently visiting a loved one & often fed & helped other patients. There is too much for the nurses to cope with, it scares me if that was my loved one or me.

TalesOfDrunkennessAndCruelty · 03/12/2021 09:38

@ShirleyPhallus

I think what I love most about mumsnet is the positivity

Yes, as shown by the fact that the very first reply offered euthanasia as an option.

trollopolis · 03/12/2021 09:40

Killing off the old because they are perceived as expensive is wrong.

Perhaps we should instead cull all those who are so ready to end other people's lives? After all, they agree with the principle of the policy and if they're ready to sacrifice other people's years of life they can give up some of theirs

MorningStarling · 03/12/2021 09:40

@RandomLondoner

It's not a crisis. People don't get old suddenly, and the number of old people doesn't increase suddenly. The number of people needing care will never outnumber the number of under-70-year-olds capable of doing it.

(There have been similarly unnecessarily worried threads on here asking what people are going to do for jobs when robots and AI are doing everything. The most useful thing about this thread is that we can link to it as an answer whenever someone starts one of those.)

That's a very good point, when robots are able to take our jobs it's only a matter of time before they are capable of care work too. There's always an outcry when proposing realistic sex robots that look and feel like a real person, but in the case of care work a realistic robot would be very welcome.

It's more plausible than paying care staff well.

ronniz · 03/12/2021 09:40

My mum talks about euthanasia but that's because she's scared of the alternative

awesomekilick · 03/12/2021 09:41

MIL had dementia. Lived in care home. Had about four mini strokes/flu/UTI any of which could have caused her death but each of which meant hospital stays which exacerbated her distress and confusion.

It's Bonkers. She should have been allowed to die frond the first one. She was over 90 when she finally passed away. I'd say her last ten years were awful for her, her family and the NHS.

It's over-treatment that needs to stop imo.

ronniz · 03/12/2021 09:42

There's always an outcry when proposing realistic sex robots that look and feel like a real person, but in the case of care work a realistic robot would be very welcome.

Who will pay for the robots though?

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