Ageing population crisis

[Cucumberpitta]

Medical intervention means we are living longer than ever before. We are spending a larger proportion of our lives dependent on care because we are disabled, in pain, and/or without mental capacity.

There are not enough carers because it's an undervalued role with shit pay.
There seems to be no planning by govt to prepare for this shift - there will literally not be enough carers or tax payers to look after the elderly.

Not to mention the questionable morality of preventing the death of someone for them to live in pain, doubly incontinent, immobile and confused; with insufficient care because there's just not enough funding for them.

People talk of the immigration crisis, climate crisis....

The percentage of elderly needing care is set to skyrocket and we can't even look after the current numbers properly.

What is going to happen?

We could allow our European neighbours freedom of movement to work in the U.K., so that skilled younger people from nearby countries could move here to help address the demographic imbalance by taking on care and healthcare jobs and alleviating the shortage of younger workers.

Oh…wait….

@Artichokeleaves that is precisely why DH and I are having these conversations now in our mid 50s. We are at the age where the medical attitude could well be 'let's give it a go, it might work' with the alternative being 'let's make you comfortable'. I choose comfortable.

@foxgoosefinch

I know beggars belief doesn't it?

Euthanasia in cases of dementia. If it were made legal it could only happen if people agreed to it while they were still mentally competent, and you can’t force people to do that.

I think living standards will keep declining in the UK & other western countries. Im encouraging my dc to emigrate for other opportunities but it's easier for my dc than others & it exacerbates the problem.

Cucumber

"What is going to happen?"

Well, no-one has a crystal ball but at look at other threads will give you the answer.

Those " I want my human rights at all costs" will win the day, refuse vaccinations and spread Covid around.
Those that are vulnerable, like the elderly and those with chronic conditions will die in large numbers and the problem will be solved.

Darwinism in action.

@Sugarplumfairy65 sorry to hear that you’re unwell but euthanasia isn’t about anybody else deciding whether someone should be put down. It’s the person themselves deciding that they want to die.
In the case of dementia for example - the person they were is already gone. Their body is stil there (and in some cases hale and healthy!) but they don’t know anything.

My mother has requested this should she get dementia or Alzheimer’s. Don’t know how we’d carry it out of though if she moves to the U.K…

@Sugarplumfairy65 oops sorry if I misinterpreted as making people choose euthanasia!

@Tiny2018

I currently work in a care home. I started on the nursing wards, which mainly consisted of those with Dementia. It is absolutely soul destroying to watch these people suffer the way they do. I am now in the kitchen as hours suit childcare better but I am consequently a huge advocate for legalizing Euthanasia. There is simply no quality of life for these people, most of whom are being barely kept alive by underpaid and overworked carers who only have the time to cater to their physical needs.

It has made me seriously question my mortality and I know that if I ever deteriorated to the point some of these poor individuals have, is want to be spared of the suffering.

Absolutely. I have started a role caring for the elderly in their homes. We are strictly time limited and I cannot always give the care that I'd like to give, apart from the basic essentials - personal care and food/drink. Some of these people are merely existing and I have found it really quite sobering. I'm 35 but I will be making a living will this week asking that I not receive any antibiotics or other life sustaining/saving treatment whatsoever should I lose capacity for whatever reason.

I do believe assisted dying should be legalised for those with a terminal diagnosis should they want to go peacefully with their loved ones around them instead of them and their loved ones suffering trauma and pain at the end.

Kind of ironic at all the effort made to "keep granny safe" in 2020 when the reality is that many old, frail people have had their quality of life massively eroded by being denied access to healthcare (especially when they can't access it remotely) which has accelerated the development and suffering of underlying conditions, by denying or reducing their contact with loved ones (especially if in a residential setting) and generally making them too fearful to maintain their previous routines.
I'm not convinced that this has been a kindness to very elderly people.

One relative is approaching 90, lost the monitoring for her slow developing cancer, has ended up on the cusp of residential care, was unable to see her visiting grand children for the first time in two years because she could have one visitor for 30 mins (it will be over 2.5 years before we can reliably book travelling over again). Her condition has massively accelerated, and quality of life rapidly declined. Taking your chances on a short respiritory illness doesn't seem so awful in comparison to indefinite months/ years of pain, lack of stimulation and decline.

Quality of life matters far more than longevity. Capacity in the system needs to be increased (which will also benefit the NHS acute care capacity). Caring needs to be a viable profession with practical salary and hours to retain workers. We also need to be realistic about mortality. No one is immortal.

@GnomeDePlume

At an individual level get wills in place, powers of attorney etc. DH and I (mid 50s) have started clearing our home of clutter we are keeping because we are keeping. We are starting to have proper conversations about DNR (I do not want to be resuscitated).

People can help themselves to make it much easier for others to care for them.

There is so much to be said about personal responsibility.

At an individual level it’s so important we start looking after ourselves. Put the right “petrol” in, stop poisoning ourselves. Hydrate, exercise, sleep.

Not that any of this is easy when we’re over-worked and under-paid.

I know someone under 60 who has spent her whole life chain-smoking, drinking 12 sugary coffees a day and eating extra-large portions of food with snacks in between. She eats 4 boxes of Chinese food to herself in one sitting. She wakes up at 11 am and spends the day watching series until 5pm when she’ll do one small piece of housework and announce it “Right, I’ve done the bins!” then she’ll cook herself a large red meat based meal from scratch. Et cetera. Hasn’t worked in years due to a list of ailments I’ve never seen any evidence of.

She now has cancer in multiple places. If she survives her grown children are going to have to care for her for who knows how many months / years, or she’ll too be stretching the care system. Nothing wrong with that in principle.

I don’t want this for my children down the line. I don’t want them to worry about me. I don’t want them to have to be responsible for me. I don’t want them having to shower me and help me to the toilet. I don’t want to use up so many NHS resources because of I illnesses I knew I was risking. It’s really opened my eyes to personal responsibility when it comes to health (and everything else!)

But again, it’s not easy. These are just thoughts I’m having. Life is chaos. We’re all doing what we can to cope.

Those saying this is not a crisis are deluded.

Already vulnerable people are often not receiving the care they need. We cannot get enough people in care roles and its even harder to keep them.

How is this not a crisis.

It's not a crisis. People don't get old suddenly, and the number of old people doesn't increase suddenly. The number of people needing care will never outnumber the number of under-70-year-olds capable of doing it.

This. The increase in elderly is the baby boomer generation starting to increase the numbers as they are now aged 76-56. But Millenials by themselves outnumber baby boomers and are still fairly young 21-41. After you add in Gen X sandwiched in between plus Gen Z behind the Millenials now entering adulthood. It’s obvious, still plenty of younger people to care for the over 70s.

It’s not really a crisis created by demographics. It’s just that as numbers of elderly increase, need more housing designed for them and to fund a better care system. Brexit has caused labour shortages as well...not baby boomers getting older.

I don’t agree with euthanasia. It’s morally wrong. I’ve seen it operate in countries with different ethics systems and it turns into ageism and ableism very quickly. People deemed too old or too disabled are put on DNRs and withheld treatment without their consent. They literally are left to die.

I wouldn't want to be a care worker, I couldn't do it & they get paid peanuts.

The number of people needing care will never outnumber the number of under-70-year-olds capable of doing it.

You're assuming a significant proportion of the under 70s want to do it?

I see no evidence the current government has a clue what to do - social care needs much more money and the only thing they've talked about is reducing the amount people will have to pay.

In an ideal world from my POV

• better, more realistic understanding that our last 5 years (ish) of life are going to be bloody expensive if they are going to be at all nice and that we need to plan for that
• less demonisation of living in care homes: a good care home can be a lovely place to live
• assisted dying legalised
• much more open discussion of advance care planning and the realities of death, led by the NHS, so we can all make sensible legally binding choices about what we do and don't want in the future
• an opt-in approach to resuscitation attempts or even comfort over prolonging life after a certain age (like the organ donation switch). Ie after the age of (say) 75 (deliberately young) the assumption is that you would choose comfort over prolonging life if ill and choose not to be resuscitated if you are in cardiac arrest. Discussion with GP and you opt back in for as long as you want to.

More likely

• continued reduction of state-funded personal care (quality and quantity); more pressure on families and going without for those who can't afford to pay
• continued 'strengths based approach' and 'enabling independence' - ie people getting the minimum help they need, dependence on unpaid carers, people helped to live alone and isolated with poor quality care

I'm 63 and have an Advance Care Plan set up already, along with POA. Everyone knows my and DHs wishes. 85 is it for me.

@foxgoosefinch

We could allow our European neighbours freedom of movement to work in the U.K., so that skilled younger people from nearby countries could move here to help address the demographic imbalance by taking on care and healthcare jobs and alleviating the shortage of younger workers.

Oh…wait….

So are our European neighbours' populations not ageing then? Don't our European neighbours have the same looming shortage of tax payers and carers for their increasing numbers of vulnerable adults?

Cucumberpitta - there are big differentials in birth rates between EU countries.

@Sugarplumfairy65 I also have incurable cancer and I absolutely would like the right to choose when I die. No one is saying people like us would be “put down” more that are given more rights than we have now to make our own decisions (well that is how I see it anyway!)

Indeed a close friend with the same condition chose to use the services of dignitas and it gave her so much comfort to be in control at the end.

Of course the right legal frameworks need to be in place and it is a different issue I think to conservatively treating someone who has dementia etc rather than using invasive methods . The numbers who would choose euthanasia are likely small compared to all the treatment decisions that are taken daily in elderly care (and other!) medicine.

Care as a professional being properly paid and respected also needs to be addressed be that external or family carers

@TeloMere

Perhaps it will be solved by the obesity crisis. I read somewhere that todays young people will be the first generation to have a lower lifespan than their parents.

This is probably how it will be solved. Yes the obese will need care too, but for less time. Harsh, but true.

Euthanasia is a potential solution, only for those of sound mind of course and for those who want it. I'd rather go out with a bit of dignity than suffering from dementia for years, even decades.

there are big differentials in birth rates between EU countries.

So?

@GnomeDePlume

Euthanasia for dementia poses a huge ethical problem. At what point can a person say 'that's enough for me now'? A fit active person may say that being stuck in a chair in a care home would be unbearable but the reality is the decline happens over time. At the point where a person might objectively say 'that's enough for me now' they are probably past the point of saying it.

That then means that someone has to say 'that's enough for you now'. Which is very different.

Perhaps it could be part of an advance directive; ie when my dementia reaches this stage please kindly euthanise me. If that was ever legal I would absolutely request it.

Also a lot of care is "hidden" as family members step in however with increased pension ages & higher living costs I'm not sure this will continue.

Yanbu but people thinking they are saving the planet by having one or zero children. No thought to how humans will be cared for though.

@ronniz

there are big differentials in birth rates between EU countries.

So?

You can’t see the relevance to the discussion?